Park City/Talisker-Vail Lawsuit

drjeff · Mar 26, 2012

thetrailboss said:
So here is an update on this story. Last week, the SL Tribune ran an article that shed more light as to what is going on here and what is at stake.

As many know, most of the land surrounding Park City was mined in the past, and a good portion of the land, or the claims, are still owned by mining companies or their successors. Land that Deer Valley and PCMR sit are some of this former mining land. In 1969 or so, Deer Valley's predecessor, Powder Park, found that their lease was terminated and they went out of business for 12 years when Deer Valley took over the lease.

PCMR sits on land owned by an entity named the United Park City Mines. Only the base lodges and water rights are wholly owned by PCMR. PCMR has a 40 year lease with United Park City, that is set to expire this year. The leased land composes a majority of PCMR, and PCMR pays United Park City $150,000 per year.

In 2003 Talisker entered the picture by purchasing United Park City Mines, and becoming PCMR's landlord.

As many know, Talisker purchased the Canyons in 2007/2008. Ironically, most of the Canyons are on leased land with the former resort operator, Wolf Mountain, being the landlord. Talisker/Canyons pays $3 million annually to lease the land that the Canyons sits on.

According to the PCMR/United Park City lease, PCMR gave "unequivocal notice" to United Park City that they intended to renew the lease for another 40 years, or until 2051. PCMR claims that United Park City (Talisker) is refusing to renew the lease. PCMR has sued stating that United Park City (Talisker) is negotiating in bad faith.

So if the rumor that Talisker wishes to take over PCMR via a hostile takeover is true, then it was a plot that was devised back in 2003 or so.

I wonder if Deer Valley is worried about its landlord not renewing....but then again, I don't know how much land is leased there.

The SL Trib story: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53718069-78/pcmr-park-resort-ski.html.csp

TB, has it been reported how much Talisker is asking for the annual land lease rights to PCMR's curret terrain?? If this is just a case of Powdr/PCMR just asuming that the lease will be rolled over at rates negotiated 40 years ago vs. what todays "fair market" rate would be that's a whole different situation. Especially since PCMR in 2012 is far different (and larger) than PCMR was 40 years ago.

The amount of land that the Canyons sits on, and leases from Wolf Mtn isn't that much different in size than what PCMR sits on. If Talisker is paying Wolf Mtn 3 mill a year for use of that amount of land, it isn't in anyway crazy to expect that in new lease talks that a figure of 3 to maybe 4 million per year for the land that PCMR is on would be a faiur, current market figure.

If Talisker is looking for say 10 million, well then that wouldbe a different story

thetrailboss · Mar 26, 2012

Highway Star said:
They will be plenty willing to join up once they have a 800-lb gorilla next door.

FWIW Alta/Snowbird and Brighton/Solitude already sell a joint ticket. And there has long been plans to connect all the resorts via a railway or some other method (and have it be publicly financed).

Alta is local ownership that is committed to staying that way. Snowbird is owned by Dick Bass, who apparently has decided that the resort will be put into a trust when he passes. Brighton is a CNL/Boyne venture. But Solitude is actively working with Talisker on this SkiLink project.

thetrailboss · Mar 26, 2012

drjeff said:
TB, has it been reported how much Talisker is asking for the annual land lease rights to PCMR's curret terrain?? If this is just a case of Powdr/PCMR just asuming that the lease will be rolled over at rates negotiated 40 years ago vs. what todays "fair market" rate would be that's a whole different situation. Especially since PCMR in 2012 is far different (and larger) than PCMR was 40 years ago.

The amount of land that the Canyons sits on, and leases from Wolf Mtn isn't that much different in size than what PCMR sits on. If Talisker is paying Wolf Mtn 3 mill a year for use of that amount of land, it isn't in anyway crazy to expect that in new lease talks that a figure of 3 to maybe 4 million per year for the land that PCMR is on would be a faiur, current market figure.

If Talisker is looking for say 10 million, well then that wouldbe a different story

You know from what I have heard the issue is along the lines of renewal of the lease, not the price. Yes, I thought $150k was low and indicative of only a small amount of land at stake. But I was wrong. From what I have heard the issue is Talisker saying no renewal and PCMR being screwed.

Highway Star · Mar 26, 2012

thetrailboss said:
FWIW Alta/Snowbird and Brighton/Solitude already sell a joint ticket. And there has long been plans to connect all the resorts via a railway or some other method (and have it be publicly financed).

Alta is local ownership that is committed to staying that way. Snowbird is owned by Dick Bass, who apparently has decided that the resort will be put into a trust when he passes. Brighton is a CNL/Boyne venture. But Solitude is actively working with Talisker on this SkiLink project.

As I thought. But the big picture is in the branding and the marketing of it as a connected region, which is what will draw crowds to spend big money. The ones who own most of the resorts when that happens will be the big winners.

thetrailboss · Mar 26, 2012

Highway Star said:
As I thought. But the big picture is in the branding and the marketing of it as a connected region, which is what will draw crowds to spend big money. The ones who own most of the resorts when that happens will be the big winners.

Yep, very true. I think it is interesting that Talisker was interested in getting a PC resort way back in 2003, even if it involved pushing a tenant out.

Highway Star · Mar 26, 2012

thetrailboss said:
Yep, very true. I think it is interesting that Talisker was interested in getting a PC resort way back in 2003, even if it involved pushing a tenant out.

There is no question that this has the potential to the new dominant desination resort in north america in the next decade or so. Access, terrain, snow fall, are huge factors.

bigbog · Mar 27, 2012

snoseek said:
Not that I really care what happens on the Wasatch back but I'm actually rooting for powder on this one only because I do not support Taliskier and their way of doing business.

I guess the Wasatch really is the new Jerusulam...

Not a bad description. Deep pockets in business don't always coincide with positive and neighborly thinking and they often take the road of You Never Know What You Can Do Until You Try It in life...

Geoff · Mar 27, 2012

thetrailboss said:
Yep, very true. I think it is interesting that Talisker was interested in getting a PC resort way back in 2003, even if it involved pushing a tenant out.

I think it's even more interesting that John Cumming was asleep while this happened. He could very well have ended up blowing something like $50 to $100 million of daddy Ian's billion dollars by screwing this up. Even to a billionaire, that ain't chump change.

It also makes me wonder how they are doing at Copper. Copper had a lean season and it's damned tough to compete with the Vail empire with their cheap season passes and millions of skier visits.

thetrailboss · Mar 27, 2012

Geoff said:
I think it's even more interesting that John Cumming was asleep while this happened. He could very well have ended up blowing something like $50 to $100 million of daddy Ian's billion dollars by screwing this up. Even to a billionaire, that ain't chump change.

It also makes me wonder how they are doing at Copper. Copper had a lean season and it's damned tough to compete with the Vail empire with their cheap season passes and millions of skier visits.

It's interesting that POWDR didn't buy Canyons instead of Talisker.

Highway Star · Mar 27, 2012

bigbog said:
Not a bad description. Deep pockets in business don't always coincide with positive and neighborly thinking and they often take the road of You Never Know What You Can Do Until You Try It in life...

I hope Talisker drives POWDR out like the vermin they are.

drjeff · Mar 27, 2012

thetrailboss said:
It's interesting that POWDR didn't buy Canyons instead of Talisker.

If I recall correctly, at the end it was down to Talisker vs. Vail to buy the Canyons. Powdr was never really in the mix

Geoff · Mar 27, 2012

bigbog said:
Not a bad description. Deep pockets in business don't always coincide with positive and neighborly thinking and they often take the road of You Never Know What You Can Do Until You Try It in life...

Ian Cumming is roughly the 800th richest person in the world. I think you have your deep pockets parties confused here. If daddy wanted to cough up the pin money to his scion son, POWDR could have bought anything and everything related to skiing in Utah.

Highway Star · Mar 28, 2012

Thread over on TGR is getting even more interesting...

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ain-Resort-Files-Lawuit-Againt-Talisker/page3

Starting to sound more like an interconnect play, not just lease issues.

drjeff · Mar 28, 2012

BTW - Talisker at auction today for 50 mill bought the 1000 acres that makes up part of the Canyons that the Wolf Mtn trust group was sitting on

thetrailboss · Mar 28, 2012

drjeff said:
BTW - Talisker at auction today for 50 mill bought the 1000 acres that makes up part of the Canyons that the Wolf Mtn trust group was sitting on

So they don't have a landlord anymore?

legalskier · Mar 28, 2012

thetrailboss said:
SkiLink is the proposal to run a Slide Brook Express-esque lift from the top of Canyons to the base of Solitude. The ramming it through DC act got people upset (rightfully so) and the BC folks would be upset anyways. What is laughable though is that this so-called BC is so heavily skied that you would not know that it was BC. The whole Wasatch is accessible and skied a lot. As for me, the jury is out. I would not use it and there are too many people at the Canyons as it is.

Still, would you like seeing this go through?...

thetrailboss · Jul 6, 2012

The lawsuit continues, but PCMR and Talisker are in agreement that PCMR will open this season.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54437185-78/pcmr-park-talisker-ski.html.csp

And FWIW PCMR pays $155,000 in lease payments to Talisker; Talisker has to pony up $3 million to lease the land that the Canyons sits on

thetrailboss · Aug 9, 2013

http://www.powdermag.com/stories/ne...hreatened-and-100-inch-dump-in-south-america/

Still going.....now PCMR is saying that they should have had a right of first refusal before Talisker leased Canyons to Vail for $25 million a year.

thetrailboss · Aug 9, 2013

More...including the caveat on the PCMR passes:

http://ski.curbed.com/archives/2013/05/will-park-city-close-next-season.php

ScottySkis · Aug 9, 2013

thetrailboss said:
http://www.powdermag.com/stories/ne...hreatened-and-100-inch-dump-in-south-america/

Still going.....now PCMR is saying that they should have had a right of first refusal before Talisker leased Canyons to Vail for $25 million a year.

This is ridiculous, they should accept the money they already agreed to.

Park City/Talisker-Vail Lawsuit

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