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Jay Peak Lawsuit

dlague

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The reality is that group lessons for young beginners are mostly taught by teenagers with minimal training and supervision. This has been my experience in Quebec and in Jay Peak. The better qualified/experienced instructors get the better kids. The instructors with less experience (usually young) get the beginners. These instructors are usually enthusiastic, do their very best, and that is what you should expect.

At 200$ for a typical 8-week program, if parents expect their 5 year old beginner to be supervised by a level 4 skier with the maturity and experience of a forty year old, they are delusional. You send them out to have fun and the instructors usually do a good job at that.

Nobody is safe from idiots bombing downhill out of control. I'm sure we all had close calls before. Shit happens. Suing everyone won't make things better, especially suing the instructor who were trying their best for very little money (I'm obviously not talking about the idiot who hit the little girl). You just cannot expect a 16 year old in charge of 6 kids to fully control everyone going down a slope.

Every time someone sues a ski resort for no good reason is a sad day.

+1 BTW to your point - my son is a ski instructor and he is 17 and he gets the youngest beginners!
 

kingdom-tele

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That is an f'd up statement - no, idiot is the the moron on the snowboard! Who would ever think to call the 5 year old an idiot!

Someone who worked there (the snowboarding idiot) should be fully aware of the dangers in that area! People cross over to Perry Merrill all the time and as you mention - its not like Lower River Quai is narrow. However, being that it was in April it is possible that there was only one way through due to snow melt.

Plus do we have to be in such a hurry to get a run over with - people need to take a chill pill on run outs!

BTW I never see people make way at that location for people coming off RQ. Coming off the lift it is pretty slow going there since it is so flat that may be the most giving way that I have ever seen there!

Technically - at any give trail merge, given time accidents will happen - resorts should ban trail merges. Ya, thats it ban trail merges!

you asked if the instructor had control of an idiot. the repsonse was to highlight who the instructor was responsible for. I think it is pretty simple to see who is at fault between the two people involved in the collision, but a five year old is not a ski racer, or an employee, or otherwise aware of the implicit dangers of skiing, the instructor assumes those responsibilities I think, the instructor is an employee of the resort, the resort seems to have some partof the issue to me.

like everyone else who is human, the adult at fault had probably made that run at that speed many times without incident, doesn't make it right, but it certainly is a development of complacency we are all susceptible to.
 

MadMadWorld

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you asked if the instructor had control of an idiot. the repsonse was to highlight who the instructor was responsible for. I think it is pretty simple to see who is at fault between the two people involved in the collision, but a five year old is not a ski racer, or an employee, or otherwise aware of the implicit dangers of skiing, the instructor assumes those responsibilities I think, the instructor is an employee of the resort, the resort seems to have some partof the issue to me.

like everyone else who is human, the adult at fault had probably made that run at that speed many times without incident, doesn't make it right, but it certainly is a development of complacency we are all susceptible to.

Well just like anything a parent or guardian can sign the lesson waiver and assume the risks for the child.
 

kingdom-tele

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Well just like anything a parent or guardian can sign the lesson waiver and assume the risks for the child.


I get that, which is why I there is probably no legal foundation, nor should be from what I am reading. Recognizing what is legal and what is just basic common sense above and beyond the law is more my perspective I guess, it is plain to see with regard to the out of control snowboarder, maybe not so plain with procedures the ski school utilizes.
 

C-Rex

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It's always terrible when a child gets hurt. But accidents do happen, sometimes even despite our best intentions. It's possible that the boarder was in control even though he was going fast (although 50 mph sounds pretty exaggerated) and the collision was a result of several variables lining up in just the right (or in this case, wrong) way. Maybe he hit an icy section of trail when he tried to stop or turn. Or maybe the instructor was doing that thing where the kids follow single file and weave back and forth across the trail, and he had nowhere else to go. There's a million different ways to look at it and a lot we will never know.

Please, don't think I'm just taking the boarders side. I'm not. Chances are he was being reckless and will be held accountable. What bothers me is society's view that someone is always responsible and has to pay, when in fact, sometimes even when we take precautions accidents still happen. I hope the little girl recovers fully and that this incident doesn't keep her from being raised Jay.
 

KevinF

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If many areas block off terrain parks and race courses shouldn't areas where rank beginners especially children are learning be blocked off as well?

I am not familiar with the layout of Jay Peak, but a big problem at many resorts is that the "beginner trails" are simply the run-out of other trails, or cris-crosses other trails. How do you block that off?
 

MadMadWorld

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It's always terrible when a child gets hurt. But accidents do happen, sometimes even despite our best intentions. It's possible that the boarder was in control even though he was going fast (although 50 mph sounds pretty exaggerated) and the collision was a result of several variables lining up in just the right (or in this case, wrong) way. Maybe he hit an icy section of trail when he tried to stop or turn. Or maybe the instructor was doing that thing where the kids follow single file and weave back and forth across the trail, and he had nowhere else to go. There's a million different ways to look at it and a lot we will never know.

Please, don't think I'm just taking the boarders side. I'm not. Chances are he was being reckless and will be held accountable. What bothers me is society's view that someone is always responsible and has to pay, when in fact, sometimes even when we take precautions accidents still happen. I hope the little girl recovers fully and that this incident doesn't keep her from being raised Jay.

Well I don't know how it can be looked at any other way than the fact that the guy lost control. If you are skiing and you aren't able to stop yourself from hitting another person, that is losing control. Whatever the instructor was having the children do is really irrelevant. Downhill skier always as has the right of way. He should have known not to fly over an area like that without knowing who or what was below it.
 

fbrissette

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I am not familiar with the layout of Jay Peak, but a big problem at many resorts is that the "beginner trails" are simply the run-out of other trails, or cris-crosses other trails. How do you block that off?

There is always a way to block out a run, Rabbit run for example, but you already have blocked areas accessed with carpet lifts (Jay has two such areas). Once a student graduates from there, they're supposed to master the snowplow turn and should be perfectly able to ski open-access beginner trails.

A 5 year old beginner on a beginner slope is highly predictable. They move at slow speed. You will not hit one (especially on interstate) unless you deliberately fly by, really close and really fast. There is no insurance against idiots and this is a clear case of uttermost idiocy.
 

fbrissette

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Well I don't know how it can be looked at any other way than the fact that the guy lost control. If you are skiing and you aren't able to stop yourself from hitting another person, that is losing control. Whatever the instructor was having the children do is really irrelevant. Downhill skier always as has the right of way. He should have known not to fly over an area like that without knowing who or what was below it.

Well said.
 

drjeff

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you asked if the instructor had control of an idiot. the repsonse was to highlight who the instructor was responsible for. I think it is pretty simple to see who is at fault between the two people involved in the collision, but a five year old is not a ski racer, or an employee, or otherwise aware of the implicit dangers of skiing, the instructor assumes those responsibilities I think, the instructor is an employee of the resort, the resort seems to have some partof the issue to me.

like everyone else who is human, the adult at fault had probably made that run at that speed many times without incident, doesn't make it right, but it certainly is a development of complacency we are all susceptible to.

If this child had been skiing on the same trail with her parents and say another sibling or two, and the same collision happened, would you still think the resort is liable based on who was leading that child? If not, then assigning blame to the instructor who was teaching the class really seems to be moot. Heck, do we even know if this was actually a private lesson with one on one instructor to kis ratio or a group lesson with a few kids to one instructor? Chances are with a 5yr old that a "group" lesson wouldn't have more than 2 kids in it so that an instructor can help not be more than 1 arms length away from the child while riding a lift
 

kingdom-tele

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If this child had been skiing on the same trail with her parents and say another sibling or two, and the same collision happened, would you still think the resort is liable based on who was leading that child? If not, then assigning blame to the instructor who was teaching the class really seems to be moot. Heck, do we even know if this was actually a private lesson with one on one instructor to kis ratio or a group lesson with a few kids to one instructor? Chances are with a 5yr old that a "group" lesson wouldn't have more than 2 kids in it so that an instructor can help not be more than 1 arms length away from the child while riding a lift

No. I also have stated J isn't responsible for the actions of others.

I would question a parent who is willing ski with their learning child in a high traffic zone filled with a variety of skier levels. I would question a resort that establishes a learning area in the same zone with minimal delineation or separation of those skiers.
 

dlague

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If this child had been skiing on the same trail with her parents and say another sibling or two, and the same collision happened, would you still think the resort is liable based on who was leading that child? If not, then assigning blame to the instructor who was teaching the class really seems to be moot. Heck, do we even know if this was actually a private lesson with one on one instructor to kis ratio or a group lesson with a few kids to one instructor? Chances are with a 5yr old that a "group" lesson wouldn't have more than 2 kids in it so that an instructor can help not be more than 1 arms length away from the child while riding a lift

Groups often are much larger than 2 beginners even at that age. I have been to resorts like Sugarbush, Okemo, Sunday River and was asked while in the lift line if I wouldn't mind adding a passenger becuase they wanted a 4-6 year old riding with an adult. How many of you have had that experience?
 

dlague

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No. I also have stated J isn't responsible for the actions of others.

I would question a parent who is willing ski with their learning child in a high traffic zone filled with a variety of skier levels. I would question a resort that establishes a learning area in the same zone with minimal delineation or separation of those skiers.

Name the resort and you will find group lesson snakes zig zaging down a trail and not only in a beginner area. Interstate is actually a great learning area. Plenty of traffic to help with lift hitchhiking since the instructor can not be with every kid - I am sure most of us have been there done that. Also, the Metro chair is easy to get on and off.

Plenty of resorts use the run outs as beginner terrain for lessons - Jay Peak is not the first. If there were lawsuits every year for accidents in that area then I can see it but that is not the case.
 

tnt

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No. I also have stated J isn't responsible for the actions of others.

I would question a parent who is willing ski with their learning child in a high traffic zone filled with a variety of skier levels. I would question a resort that establishes a learning area in the same zone with minimal delineation or separation of those skiers.

I'm wondering just where you would take a kid skiing if not to the lower mountain lift to ski down a wide green trail?
 

kingdom-tele

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I'm wondering just where you would take a kid skiing if not to the lower mountain lift to ski down a wide green trail?


the same place I took my niece when she was learning, taking a right off the metro puts you under the freezer or further left along where N glade pops out and the entrance to the beginner glade there. We olnly ever went left off the metro to cut across and make the big zig zag, play in the moonwalker woods or head down to the village chair for a few runs.

edit: that was before the park was so large under the freezer, so it is not the best option now

for my own kid we don't go to jay to ski yet, burke has a better set up, owls head too
 

HowieT2

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So with that logic if a police officer drives illegally in the town he works in and causes injury to others then the Police Department is at fault too?

He was skiing on his own time. Worst yet, he knew the area and should have had more sense!

I dont know where you got that from, all I was saying, is that it is mighty convenient for jp that the employee was fired days before the accident, but was still using his employee pass.
 

drjeff

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Groups often are much larger than 2 beginners even at that age. I have been to resorts like Sugarbush, Okemo, Sunday River and was asked while in the lift line if I wouldn't mind adding a passenger becuase they wanted a 4-6 year old riding with an adult. How many of you have had that experience?

Point of reference, the date the accident occurred is listed in the article as April 17th, which was a Wednesday. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the ski school at Jay wasn't getting slammed with tons of young beginners that day ;)

I'll further go out on that limb and guess that the trails at Jay weren't wall to wall people on that Wednesday in mid April
 

drjeff

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the same place I took my niece when she was learning, taking a right off the metro puts you under the freezer or further left along where N glade pops out and the entrance to the beginner glade there. We olnly ever went left off the metro to cut across and make the big zig zag, play in the moonwalker woods or head down to the village chair for a few runs.

edit: that was before the park was so large under the freezer, so it is not the best option now


for my own kid we don't go to jay to ski yet, burke has a better set up, owls head too

Question, since i'm by no means a Jay regular. Would that terrain that you referenced typically be open and available on a Wednesday in Mid April? The date that the accident occurred was listed as April 17th, which was a Wednesday this year. Not stereotypically a busy time of the ski season for any resort
 

tnt

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the same place I took my niece when she was learning, taking a right off the metro puts you under the freezer or further left along where N glade pops out and the entrance to the beginner glade there. We olnly ever went left off the metro to cut across and make the big zig zag, play in the moonwalker woods or head down to the village chair for a few runs.

edit: that was before the park was so large under the freezer, so it is not the best option now

for my own kid we don't go to jay to ski yet, burke has a better set up, owls head too


Totally off topic, but i really want to try Burke some day. Never been.
 

C-Rex

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Well I don't know how it can be looked at any other way than the fact that the guy lost control. If you are skiing and you aren't able to stop yourself from hitting another person, that is losing control. Whatever the instructor was having the children do is really irrelevant. Downhill skier always as has the right of way. He should have known not to fly over an area like that without knowing who or what was below it.


Ok, I didn't articulate my thoughts well before. What I'm saying is that things can change rapidly due to many variables, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the skier/rider was acting negligently or irresponsibly.

For example: Say the conditions up the trail were nice and soft. He could have been in control, even at a high rate of speed and able to stop if need be, but as he came around a corner or over a rise, the surface conditions changed. Let's say it was a shady, wind-blown or scraped off area where the surface suddenly became icy. The grip level drops suddenly just as the kid comes into view and the accident happens before he can adjust to a proper speed. Is he still reckless? No. He's a victim of circumstances. When something like this happens, people often assume that the person was being stupid or careless when that may not have been the case. It may have just been an unfortunate way for rapidly evolving circumstances to play out.

Again, I'm not saying this particular guy wasn't acting recklessly. He probably was, but it is possible for things like this to happen when it's not really anyone's fault. It could just be an honest accident, but people generally jump to the conclusion that somone is to blame.

I'm a big advocate for personal responsibility, so when blame is warranted I believe it should be accepted by the guilty party, but we should not jump to blaming someone when we don't know all the facts, and we should remember that true accidents do happen.
 
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