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Jay Peak Lawsuit

thetrailboss

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i am not disagreeing with you. the tricky part here is that this is very different from you and i buying into the skier's code and signing a waiver. it's not about how much fault/blame you can place on a reckless snowboarder either. and definitely not about that poor instructor. this is a case about a 5 year old, who was under JP's care. if you want sample cases? just look at the daycare industry. you think those parents sign a waiver?
as a for profit organization selling a product (in this case a service of ski instruction), it is your responsibility to make sure your product is safe. i am not trying to say that the parents should have sued. what i am saying is that this is how often it works in this country in our legal system.

now as a parent of 3 kids do i think JP could have done better? i think so. i cannot remember which resort, but i have seen in one occasion where more than 2 instructors (in the front, and the back of the group) were protecting a group of small children going down the mountain making sure the traffic behind the kids are alerted to stay far away from their kids.

the net net of it is, the resorts will tighten up the instructors, raise the prices and create more process nightmares, well that sux doesn't it. blame the rogue snowboarder....it only takes just one punk.....

This, again, is not about a product. That comparison is not accurate. This is about a service that was rendered and, as said, the parents signed a standard release before leaving their kid with the lesson. I took a (free) lesson at JPR 10 years ago and even then I had to sign a release. It's pretty standard and they are usually enforceable. They most likely agreed to release JPR for ordinary negligence.

And yes, I've signed a release for my little one before she went to daycare at Snowbird.
 

deadheadskier

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as a for profit organization selling a product (in this case a service of ski instruction), it is your responsibility to make sure your product is safe...

skiing isn't safe. that's why there are waivers for participation at every turn.

the consumer assumes those risks by agreeing to participate. parents assume those risks by signing their kids up for ski school.

it's the nature of the sport. on rare occasions, horrible things happen. I know it sounds cold, but if you don't want to subject yourself or your loved ones to those risks, you have a choice to not participate. it's that simple.
 

gladerider

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Whoa, whoa. Hold on there Vladimir Putin...this isn't Russia. Criminal charges against corporations are very, very rare and only in extreme cases....like Deepwater Horizon. Yesterday most of us were skeptical about a civil case against JPR.

And this is in no way a case of strict liability. This is not based on products liability or ultrahazardous activity.

is that a fact or your assumption? also, i said i DOUBT it is a criminal case since like you said such case would be very rare.
 

thetrailboss

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is that a fact or your assumption? also, i said i DOUBT it is a criminal case since like you said such case would be very rare.

It's a fact. Simple as that. This is not a lawsuit about a defective product and there is not a basis for criminal liability here. The claim against JPR is negligent hiring and training. That's a tort.
 

gladerider

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This, again, is not about a product. That comparison is not accurate. This is about a service that was rendered and, as said, the parents signed a standard release before leaving their kid with the lesson. I took a (free) lesson at JPR 10 years ago and even then I had to sign a release. It's pretty standard and they are usually enforceable. They most likely agreed to release JPR for ordinary negligence.

And yes, I've signed a release for my little one before she went to daycare at Snowbird.

i used product/service interchangeably, but that's my bad. i think you are missing my point though. unless i am mistaken waivers protect the resorts normally from things that are out of their control. i bet this case is arguing that providing safe service is part of their control, which may be a tough case for an adult, but not so for a 5 year old, imo.

also, i brought up the daycare thing just to show you that even though parents sign waivers for the daycare services, they sue daycares all the time and guess what, their chances are often very good.
 

gladerider

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It's a fact. Simple as that. This is not a lawsuit about a defective product and there is not a basis for criminal liability here. The claim against JPR is negligent hiring and training. That's a tort.

did not know that. poor instructor. i still think JPR would lose based on kid's age. not good for the instructors in the future.
 

thetrailboss

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did not know that. poor instructor. i still think JPR would lose based on kid's age. not good for the instructors in the future.

I feel bad for the instructor on duty and that was leading the group; the guy who ran into the group, as said, was an idiot.
 

Hawkshot99

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Most likely the instructor was truly no longer employed. Since it was late season he was most likely told that his services were no longer needed as there were not enough lessons anymore. He still possessed his pass, because he had done nothing wrong to lose his job.

Pretty much every mtn lays off most of its teaching staff at the end of the year, but lets them keep skiing on the pass. Since Jay has a RFID system I can guarantee you that the pass would have been terminated immediately had he been fired(I know it is at the mtn I am familiar with)
 

MadMadWorld

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Whoa, whoa. Hold on there Vladimir Putin...this isn't Russia. Criminal charges against corporations are very, very rare and only in extreme cases....like Deepwater Horizon. Yesterday most of us were skeptical about a civil case against JPR.

And this is in no way a case of strict liability. This is not based on products liability or ultrahazardous activity.

Magnitsky had it coming!
 

fbrissette

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Is the expectation higher for patroller, race coaches, and instructors. Would the individual have been sued if it was just a regular joe? I really don't know if they would have gone after him.

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I think expectations should be higher. If I was the ski school manager, I would make clear to all instructors that if you are skiing for free with a Jay Peak jacket on, you are an ambassador. You act nice, you talk to people, you help old ladies. As to the lawsuit, I think they would probably have gone after him anyway, but it sure helps the case against Jay Peak that the guy was an instructor.
 

fbrissette

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Most likely the instructor was truly no longer employed. Since it was late season he was most likely told that his services were no longer needed as there were not enough lessons anymore. He still possessed his pass, because he had done nothing wrong to lose his job.

Pretty much every mtn lays off most of its teaching staff at the end of the year, but lets them keep skiing on the pass. Since Jay has a RFID system I can guarantee you that the pass would have been terminated immediately had he been fired(I know it is at the mtn I am familiar with)

I think you are spot on. Saying he was fired seems a bit like posturing for the media. If he truly had done something wrong, his pass would have been immediately canceled. Very easy to do with RFID.
 

drjeff

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I feel bad for the instructor on duty and that was leading the group; the guy who ran into the group, as said, was an idiot.

Oh Attorney TB, you're jumping to conclusions here that the child injured was in a group lesson ;) . I don't believe quickly looking back over the press releases that it says more than just the child was in a lesson at JPR.

If this was the case where it was actually a private lesson, or one of the "group" lessons that turns into a private since it was being given mid week in mid April then would one view this overall scenario of who's at "fault" for the injured child being in that place at that time any differently? Since I think that we all can agree that in a "private" lesson situation the instructor tends to #1 be a "better" instructor and #2 have a much higher awareness of the location of their student and the terrain appropriateness for the student
 

Smellytele

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Oh Attorney TB, you're jumping to conclusions here that the child injured was in a group lesson ;) . I don't believe quickly looking back over the press releases that it says more than just the child was in a lesson at JPR.

If this was the case where it was actually a private lesson, or one of the "group" lessons that turns into a private since it was being given mid week in mid April then would one view this overall scenario of who's at "fault" for the injured child being in that place at that time any differently? Since I think that we all can agree that in a "private" lesson situation the instructor tends to #1 be a "better" instructor and #2 have a much higher awareness of the location of their student and the terrain appropriateness for the student

"According to recently filed papers at U.S. District Court in Burlington, Juliana Kane was among six youngsters undergoing instruction on Interstate, a beginner trail, on April 17 when Jay Peak instructor William Vincent came down the hill at a high rate of speed."
 

drjeff

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"According to recently filed papers at U.S. District Court in Burlington, Juliana Kane was among six youngsters undergoing instruction on Interstate, a beginner trail, on April 17 when Jay Peak instructor William Vincent came down the hill at a high rate of speed."


Thank you for the clarification smellytele, I stand corrected :)
 

MadMadWorld

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Oh Attorney TB, you're jumping to conclusions here that the child injured was in a group lesson ;) . I don't believe quickly looking back over the press releases that it says more than just the child was in a lesson at JPR.

If this was the case where it was actually a private lesson, or one of the "group" lessons that turns into a private since it was being given mid week in mid April then would one view this overall scenario of who's at "fault" for the injured child being in that place at that time any differently? Since I think that we all can agree that in a "private" lesson situation the instructor tends to #1 be a "better" instructor and #2 have a much higher awareness of the location of their student and the terrain appropriateness for the student

Would it really matter anyways? Say the instructor stopped in a better spot and was uphill above the student like I was always taught. It still could have happened because the snowboarder was out of control and in my mind wreckless. I had 2 coworkers get bad injuries in the same season while they were teaching, and stopped in a safe place on the side of the trail. They were standing above their class and both got hit hard (one torn his rotator cuff and the other his ACL). I think it's ridiculous to be placing blame on the instructor in a case like this. It's easy to play monday morning quarterback but unless you have taught a lesson with young kids you probably don't understand why an instructor might have to stop in a bad spot or why they weren't above them at the time, etc.

On a side note, when I taught an intermediate lesson to kids I would bring them into the terrain park because the half pipe and rollers were perfect for some drills. I can only imagine how I would have crucified by some people on here if someone plowed into one of my kids and injured them.

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VT_Snowrider

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Weird that Jay Peak had apparently terminated the employee in question but had yet to revoke his employee lift pass, as they were going to "exchange" it for his final paycheck? Knowing what ski area employees are paid, I'm thinking a lift pass is worth more than the paycheck.

Not meant to be an even exchange. More like "We're not paying you until you hand over your pass." Pass is definitely is worth more than the check, but w/most lifties just being seasonal workers and living paycheck to paycheck they thought he'd defintely want the cash and would come for his check. As a liftie here in VT I see this happen every season. People rarely surrender their passes when they're fired. As was stated already they could have de--activated his RIFD pass, but sometimes things like that aren't a priority while running a multi million dollar resort.
 

dlague

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Not meant to be an even exchange. More like "We're not paying you until you hand over your pass." Pass is definitely is worth more than the check, but w/most lifties just being seasonal workers and living paycheck to paycheck they thought he'd defintely want the cash and would come for his check. As a liftie here in VT I see this happen every season. People rarely surrender their passes when they're fired. As was stated already they could have de--activated his RIFD pass, but sometimes things like that aren't a priority while running a multi million dollar resort.

Plus they probably did not expect him to plow someone over either!

Based on some of the points of view that I have read may be Jay Peak and the instructor need a better crystal ball so accidents do not happen and better predict the future!
 

AdironRider

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This talk of April 17th being dead seems odd to me. While obviously not Christmas week busy, I do know that the 17th fell during school vacation weeks for my hometown last year. Probably a bit more busy than your typical end of season midweek day, but I wasn't their either.

Even still, a mtn of Jay's caliber is probably filling at least one or two beginner lessons every day of the season IME.
 

Hawkshot99

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Not meant to be an even exchange. More like "We're not paying you until you hand over your pass." Pass is definitely is worth more than the check, but w/most lifties just being seasonal workers and living paycheck to paycheck they thought he'd defintely want the cash and would come for his check. As a liftie here in VT I see this happen every season. People rarely surrender their passes when they're fired. As was stated already they could have de--activated his RIFD pass, but sometimes things like that aren't a priority while running a multi million dollar resort.
My local mtn holds the paycheck till the instructor turns in their coats.
If a employee calls in sick on a day the HR department will turn off their season pass for the day as well.


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