Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten

deadheadskier · Apr 5, 2023

1dog said:
and takes a 5% pay cut. . . .

Big reason why I live in NH. I work remotely and can reside really anywhere in New England. NH makes the most sense from a tax perspective. And as you posted above, the NH seacoast area is a fantastic location due to access to mountains, lakes, ocean, Boston and Portland. It has it all and unfortunately has been found out in the past decade or so.

x10003q · Apr 5, 2023

machski said:
I agree the jet set won't make the Balsams work alone or likely be a big part. My point is more to refute the no one is going to go there if built idea. The old Balsams had a draw from more than just drive distance and a known name. And back then, the draw was more summer and fall than winter (as has been said, the ski area back then was basically a sideshow). Big IF, but if they can rekindle the summer/fall draw and create a compelling and somewhat unique ski resort experience, it could work. But nothing is guaranteed.

Les needs big crowds to show up in order to sell 2500 units to finance the ski area build out. The summer experience will be no different than any other ski resort without a 'summer' town draw ( like Stowe/Conway/Lake Placid) nearby. It will be empty. The golf course might be amazing, but it will only handle about 300 golfers per day. Golf at The Balsams will not drive real estate sales or rentals.

While there might have been a summer history at The Balsams, that was lost long ago.

Hawk · Apr 5, 2023

How do you know it is lost? There is still a large amount of people from the past that remember what it was like. Also new places sometimes get traction. I'm not going to shoot this down now without seeing where it goes and how fast.
I also don't understand the animosity toword Less Otten. People talk about him like he ruined things all over the place and made all bad decisions. My perception of Les was that he gave me a new lift, trails and terrain almost every year for about 10 years. And at Sugarbush we got all new lifts and snow making and then he was gone. Frankly I don't have an isue with him. He always said hi to me when I saw him at the mountain and made small talk about the conditions. and if it doesn't work out we at least get a new place to ski with expansion possiblities. I see no down side.

Everyone is a complete expert at realestate speculation. Thats why we are all rich from doing it. Right. Nope.
You have to have vision and take big risks to make big money. Without people like Les there would be no Whistler or Revelstoke or Kicking Horse.

AdironRider · Apr 5, 2023

Never underestimate a ski forum's ability to shit on any sort of new skiing initiative. It is very strange.

Newpylong · Apr 5, 2023

Well said. He is a very controversial figure for sure.

I did not like some (okay quite a few) decisions that were made by LBO and later ASC, but no one can say that his heart was not in the right place. Many of the mountains we love dearly would not have the infrastructure they have today if not for what he did.

Even the "cheap ASC passes" have come back full circle with Epic and to a certain extent Ikon. All of the major resort players today are literally finishing what he started, but using hard lessons learned, especially in regards to overleveraging and real estate hedging.

So I guess say what you want, but some appreciation is deserved. I've grown to give him more slack over the years now that I can put things more into perspective.

MadPadraic · Apr 5, 2023

Newpylong said:
Even the "cheap ASC passes" have come back full circle with Epic and to a certain extent Ikon. All of the major resort players today are literally finishing what he started, but using hard lessons learned, especially in regards to overleveraging and real estate hedging.

Is this still the case, it seems like price hikes are slowly eroding this, My ikon is going to cost 1079 and epic costs 909. For funsies, I looked up what my old Boyne passes would cost: in 2015 it was $999 for the gold. You can argue (fairly successfully IMO) that you get more with the modern passes because they include a really attractive roster of Western and European resorts. For several years I'd get an Epic local for around ~~$400 (IIRC)~~ and a Boyne silver for around 6-700 and end up with ~~very similar costs~~ to what I'll pay next year. (queue arguments about inflation...)

Update: the Epic local cost $590 in 2014.

bigbob · Apr 5, 2023

MadPadraic said:
Why not sedans or wagons?

I am suprised nobody mentioned EV's! If you think Americans are going to ride a train to the Balsum's I got some ocean front land for sale in Arizona for you.

kbroderick · Apr 5, 2023

MadPadraic said:
Is this still the case, it seems like price hikes are slowly eroding this, My ikon is going to cost 1079 and epic costs 909. For funsies, I looked up what my old Boyne passes would cost: in 2015 it was $999 for the gold. You can argue (fairly successfully IMO) that you get more with the modern passes because they include a really attractive roster of Western and European resorts. For several years I'd get an Epic local for around ~~$400 (IIRC)~~ and a Boyne silver for around 6-700 and end up with ~~very similar costs~~ to what I'll pay next year. (queue arguments about inflation...)

Update: the Epic local cost $590 in 2014.

What did a new F-150 go for then? How about a dozen eggs? Or one of the LBO-era condos at Sunday River?

I haven't done the math, but I wouldn't be surprised if the price hikes were equal to or less than overall inflation.

Some of the animosity towards ASC was earned, IMO, when it expanded a little too fast for its own good and (from what I could tell) lacked the capital to support the growth. As someone who grew up skiing at Sunday River through the height of the expansion era, I always thought that the lesson of ASC (beyond having plenty of capital so you're not forced into a crappy deal with someone to get enough of it) was that having incredible success at one ski area doesn't mean that you can go out and apply the same business plan elsewhere and expect the same level of success. Take that with a shaker of salt, though, as I was barely out of high school when Oak Hill took control of the company.

urungus · Apr 5, 2023

deadheadskier said:
Big reason why I live in NH. I work remotely and can reside really anywhere in New England. NH makes the most sense from a tax perspective. And as you posted above, the NH seacoast area is a fantastic location due to access to mountains, lakes, ocean, Boston and Portland. It has it all and unfortunately has been found out in the past decade or so.

Serious question, how much of the savings in income tax gets eaten up by New Hamphires property taxes, which are second highest in the nation and almost double the Massachusetts rate ? https://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state

I resent NH freeloaders (excuse me, free-staters) for their parasitic policy of “tax exporting” (collecting tax revenues from residents of other states), eg the Meals and Rentals Tax which makes up 11% of NH tax revenues, placing liquor stores near state borders, tolling the turnpike, etc

snoseek · Apr 5, 2023

urungus said:
How much of the savings in income tax gets eaten up by New Hamphires property taxes, which are second highest in the nation and almost double the Massachusetts rate ? https://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state

a good bit but NH is amongst the lowest tax burdens in the country. Mass tax burden is...well

deadheadskier · Apr 5, 2023

urungus said:
How much of the savings in income tax gets eaten up by New Hamphires property taxes, which are second highest in the nation and almost double the Massachusetts rate ? https://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state

People often wonder this, but the advantages are still considerable with the lack of income and sales tax. While the mill rate maybe higher in NH, the valuations are lower, so it's really not as bad as people think.

If I resided in Mass, my state income tax bill would be double my current property tax bill.

thetrailboss · Apr 5, 2023

urungus said:
I resent NH freeloaders (excuse me, free-staters) for their parasitic policy of “tax exporting” (collecting tax revenues from residents of other states), eg the Meals and Rentals Tax which makes up 11% of NH tax revenues, placing liquor stores near state borders, tolling the turnpike, etc

Newsflash: every state I know that relies on tourism relies on these so-called “parasitic” tax policies. It’s nothing new or unique to NH. I imagine that you pay a lot more when visiting VT (sales AND rooms/meals taxes) as well as Maine and other states.

thetrailboss · Apr 5, 2023

snoseek said:
a good bit but NH is amongst the lowest tax burdens in the country. Mass tax burden is...well

AFAIK the property tax is the only real broad-based tax in NH except for rooms and meals. That is a positive (low cost of living if you have a good income) and negative (high tax rate for those that struggle to own property). But the pros and cons are for another discussion.

Now back to Les and his latest project.

(Bring back the one piece ski suit?)

deadheadskier · Apr 5, 2023

urungus said:
I resent NH freeloaders (excuse me, free-staters) for their parasitic policy of “tax exporting” (collecting tax revenues from residents of other states), eg the Meals and Rentals Tax which makes up 11% of NH tax revenues, placing liquor stores near state borders, tolling the turnpike, etc

Have you ever stayed at a hotel in Boston? There's like 5 different tax line items. How is that any different when we come down to stay there?

Mass also benefits greatly by a ton of workers who live here, but work and pay income tax in your state.

I don't think things are as parasitic as you think neighbor.

x10003q · Apr 5, 2023

Hawk said:
How do you know it is lost? There is still a large amount of people from the past that remember what it was like. Also new places sometimes get traction. I'm not going to shoot this down now without seeing where it goes and how fast.

How about we stop pretending that this was some crowded summer mecca for regular people. It was a fancy, gated, mountain hotel of the era were rich people from the cities spent the summer in the mountains before air conditioning existed. Between WW1 until Tillotson bought it in 1954 there were multiple owners and bankruptcies. It somewhat stabilized financially when they added skiing in 1966 and stayed open year around. As mentioned, Tillotson kept it going because he was wealthy from his rubber plant. The place probably never made money.

Hawk said:
I also don't understand the animosity toword Less Otten. People talk about him like he ruined things all over the place and made all bad decisions. My perception of Les was that he gave me a new lift, trails and terrain almost every year for about 10 years. And at Sugarbush we got all new lifts and snow making and then he was gone. Frankly I don't have an isue with him. He always said hi to me when I saw him at the mountain and made small talk about the conditions. and if it doesn't work out we at least get a new place to ski with expansion possiblities. I see no down side.

Les did amazing things at Sunday River, but he also got a lucky sweetheart deal when Sherburne (Killington) wanted to dump the place due to their own financial problems after they bought Mt Snow. He bought the place for $840k and Sherburne gave him the entire amount as a loan. The story of ASC started out pretty good but became a huge failure.

The downside at The Balsams will be for the RE buyers when the ski area cannot support itself and has to close.

Hawk said:
Everyone is a complete expert at realestate speculation. Thats why we are all rich from doing it. Right. Nope.
You have to have vision and take big risks to make big money. Without people like Les there would be no Whistler or Revelstoke or Kicking Horse.

Les announced this project in 2014. He has been unable to get any private or public financing until he recently got some kind of non-profit funding. If this thing was viable, private money would be lining up at his door to give him money and money has been super cheap until recently. Lenders get rich from lending money to projects that are viable.

cdskier · Apr 6, 2023

deadheadskier said:
Have you ever stayed at a hotel in Boston? There's like 5 different tax line items. How is that any different when we come down to stay there?

Heh...I stayed in Cambridge last year for work and remember being pretty amazed at how many tax line items there were on the hotel bill. Just looked and there were 4 different ones! You had Room Occupancy Tax, Room City Tax, Convention Center Tax, and Tourism Assessment tax. Adding all those up it essentially came to a 16% tax (on top of the relatively high room rate itself). Crazy!

BodeMiller1 · Apr 6, 2023

I like Quincy. Lots of gas stations. Weird once you get south of Boston.

2Planker · Apr 6, 2023

thetrailboss said:
AFAIK the property tax is the only real broad-based tax in NH except for rooms and meals. That is a positive (low cost of living if you have a good income) and negative (high tax rate for those that struggle to own property). But the pros and cons are for another discussion.

Now back to Les and his latest project.

View attachment 57923

(Bring back the one piece ski suit?)

I remember him in that Purple, Gray and almost Pink suit.... I found his "Less Otten, President" name tag, right after the wearing a name tag became a big thing... We held it for ransom for a week or so

Newpylong · Apr 6, 2023

deadheadskier said:
People often wonder this, but the advantages are still considerable with the lack of income and sales tax. While the mill rate maybe higher in NH, the valuations are lower, so it's really not as bad as people think.

If I resided in Mass, my state income tax bill would be double my current property tax bill.

Also no Vehicle Excise tax (we do pay more in straight registration fees).

2Planker · Apr 6, 2023

Newpylong said:
Also no Vehicle Excise tax (we do pay more in straight registration fees).

and still No Auto Ins required. As I found out the hard way, after being TBoned by an Uninsured NH driver....

Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten

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