Jay Peak bombshell - Page 141

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  1. #1401
    Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss View Post
    You clearly have no idea what happened here....this was fraud. That is not an "accepted risk" for investors.
    I think we all know this was never an "investment" and was always a ticket to the front of the green card line.

    That being said, I still have a hard time arguing the state of VT aided and abetted this scam. They were always going to be biased towards seeing this project succeed, and as a result, only saw rainbows and unicorns. AKA typical government grandstanding and unfulfilled pie in the sky promises, followed by inept oversight.

    Which is a distinction compared to Quiros who was actively plotting the scam. The state of VT was a convenient rubber stamp but ultimately it feels like they were defrauded also.

    Intent matters.
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  2. #1402
    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    The state of VT was a convenient rubber stamp but ultimately it feels like they were defrauded also.

    Intent matters.
    Typically the defrauded party would be the one most wanting to see justice & cooperate with law enforcement. Instead, State of Vermont has blocked & obstructed justice at every turn, refuses to turn over emails & documents, has "disappeared" some emails, and is stonewalling. As for "intent", frankly we have no idea specifically due to aforementioned stonewalling.

    And of the stereotypical government incompetence you speak of, it seems like much more than merely that.

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  3. #1403
    Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss View Post
    You clearly have no idea what happened here....this was fraud. That is not an "accepted risk" for investors.
    I make no reference to the specific legal case regarding Jay. SV used EB-5 with no issues I've seen and I'm guessing it was used in other places as well. Agree with whoever said it was an obvious ' cut the line to citizenship'.

    Government, private, doesn't matter - anytime you lend money there is risk.

    Sounds like a lot of grumbling about other peoples money until it involves tax payers - then it's the publics problem.

    Did the taxpers money get lost? Was it just everyone in Montpeiler looking the other way or pretending not to see problems that were arising? I'm not privy on the details but it seems like private money from foreigners managed by borrowers w/state government oversight - and I'd venture to guess the State Dept had to be somewhat involved to make citizenship clearances for lenders.

    If its fraud, then the judicial system should do its job. Looks like people are headed for jail.

    I'll repeat - government is not a good allocator of capital in private investment. Heck, they aren't that good in public infrastructure which should be under their pervue. M. Stanley Dukasis promised the Big Dig to top out at $900M.

    $22B and counting . . .

  4. #1404
    Quote Originally Posted by 1dog View Post
    I make no reference to the specific legal case regarding Jay. SV used EB-5 with no issues I've seen and I'm guessing it was used in other places as well. Agree with whoever said it was an obvious ' cut the line to citizenship'.

    Government, private, doesn't matter - anytime you lend money there is risk.

    Sounds like a lot of grumbling about other peoples money until it involves tax payers - then it's the publics problem.

    Did the taxpers money get lost? Was it just everyone in Montpeiler looking the other way or pretending not to see problems that were arising? I'm not privy on the details but it seems like private money from foreigners managed by borrowers w/state government oversight - and I'd venture to guess the State Dept had to be somewhat involved to make citizenship clearances for lenders.

    If its fraud, then the judicial system should do its job. Looks like people are headed for jail.

    I'll repeat - government is not a good allocator of capital in private investment. Heck, they aren't that good in public infrastructure which should be under their pervue. M. Stanley Dukasis promised the Big Dig to top out at $900M.

    $22B and counting . . .

    https://vtdigger.org/2019/10/11/stat...bukes-by-feds/

  5. #1405
    thetrailboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1dog View Post
    I make no reference to the specific legal case regarding Jay. SV used EB-5 with no issues I've seen and I'm guessing it was used in other places as well. Agree with whoever said it was an obvious ' cut the line to citizenship'.
    That still does not justify fraud.

    Government, private, doesn't matter - anytime you lend money there is risk.
    Fraud is not one of those risks.

    Sounds like a lot of grumbling about other peoples money until it involves tax payers - then it's the publics problem.

    Did the taxpers money get lost? Was it just everyone in Montpeiler looking the other way or pretending not to see problems that were arising? I'm not privy on the details but it seems like private money from foreigners managed by borrowers w/state government oversight - and I'd venture to guess the State Dept had to be somewhat involved to make citizenship clearances for lenders.
    Again, you clearly are out of your element on this one. I don't know why you are saying so much about a situation that you know nothing about.

    I'll repeat - government is not a good allocator of capital in private investment. Heck, they aren't that good in public infrastructure which should be under their pervue. M. Stanley Dukasis promised the Big Dig to top out at $900M.

    $22B and counting . . .
    WTF does this have to do with this situation?
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  6. #1406
    thetrailboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    I think we all know this was never an "investment" and was always a ticket to the front of the green card line.
    This is a program that allows foreign investors to make at-risk investments in job-creating projects in impoverished areas with the benefit of green card status, provided that the investment does create jobs. So yes there was a ticket to a green card, but it is more than that. Details do matter.

    That being said, I still have a hard time arguing the state of VT aided and abetted this scam. They were always going to be biased towards seeing this project succeed, and as a result, only saw rainbows and unicorns. AKA typical government grandstanding and unfulfilled pie in the sky promises, followed by inept oversight.

    Which is a distinction compared to Quiros who was actively plotting the scam. The state of VT was a convenient rubber stamp but ultimately it feels like they were defrauded also.

    Intent matters.
    This is where the evidence is important. Was there actual fraud by state officials who knew or did not verify what they were saying to investors was in fact wrong? Specifically, a Governor who in 2012 clearly says in a promotional video for the EB-5 program that the Vermont Center "is the only EB-5 center that audits these projects" when in fact they did not and had no idea how to even see fraud? At this juncture, the Vermont Supreme Court has said that there is at least a viable allegation of negligence on the part of the State.
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  7. #1407
    Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss View Post
    This is a program that allows foreign investors to make at-risk investments in job-creating projects in impoverished areas with the benefit of green card status, provided that the investment does create jobs. So yes there was a ticket to a green card, but it is more than that. Details do matter.
    Let's not try to put lipstick on a pig. The ROI on the vast majority of these projects is insanely low. The primary reason a foreign investor makes these investments at all is to cut to the front of the green card line. End of story. They're not doing it for some altruistic reason because they want to help create jobs or help struggling areas.

    This is where the evidence is important. Was there actual fraud by state officials who knew or did not verify what they were saying to investors was in fact wrong? Specifically, a Governor who in 2012 clearly says in a promotional video for the EB-5 program that the Vermont Center "is the only EB-5 center that audits these projects" when in fact they did not and had no idea how to even see fraud? At this juncture, the Vermont Supreme Court has said that there is at least a viable allegation of negligence on the part of the State.
    Agree here...

  8. #1408
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdskier View Post
    Let's not try to put lipstick on a pig. The ROI on the vast majority of these projects is insanely low. The primary reason a foreign investor makes these investments at all is to cut to the front of the green card line. End of story. They're not doing it for some altruistic reason because they want to help create jobs or help struggling areas.
    These still are an at-risk investment subject to various regulations. And yes there was some expectation of some return. Were returns guaranteed? Of course not. It seems that a lot of folks here don't understand how the program was supposed to work. Investors are screened by the feds and receive a temporary green card. No permanent immigration status is issued until the project has created a certain number of jobs (which in and of itself can be manipulated).

    This is overlooking the larger point and that is not to be complete xenophobes here. One cannot say that because these foreign investors were interested in a green card that somehow losing their money to a fraudster is completely OK. I've seen this argument implicitly made in this thread--that we should not care because these investors were only trying to buy citizenship and that is wrong so them getting bilked is completely fine. Well, that policy debate was had now over 20 years ago and Congress created the EB-5 program. These investments are subject to the same consumer protections available to us as investors. In fact, the biggest reason why so many do invest in America is because of these protections (or at least some form of protection).

    The argument that because these folks wanted a green card and the fact that they lost their money to a fraudster is OK is complete bullshit.

    Last edited by thetrailboss; Oct 12, 2019 at 3:19 PM.
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  9. #1409
    Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss View Post
    These still are an at-risk investment subject to various regulations. And yes there was some expectation of some return. Were returns guaranteed? Of course not. It seems that a lot of folks here don't understand how the program was supposed to work. Investors are screened by the feds and receive a temporary green card. No permanent immigration status is issued until the project has created a certain number of jobs (which in and of itself can be manipulated).

    This is overlooking the larger point and that is not to be complete xenophobes here. One cannot say that because these foreign investors were interested in a green card that somehow losing their money to a fraudster is completely OK. I've seen this argument implicitly made in this thread--that we should not care because these investors were only trying to buy citizenship and that is wrong so them getting bilked is completely fine. Well, that policy debate was had now over 20 years ago and Congress created the EB-5 program. These investments are subject to the same consumer protections available to us as investors. In fact, the biggest reason why so many do invest in America is because of these protections (or at least some form of protection).

    The argument that because these folks wanted a green card and the fact that they lost their money to a fraudster is OK is complete bullshit.
    Don't know where you pulled that correlation from out of what I said. Maybe other people have said that in the past, but I certainly didn't in my post here. I agree 110% that losing the money to fraudsters is not ok and should be investigated/prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That has absolutely no relevance to the fact that the primary reason they "invested" in the first place is to get a green card. I fully agree that taking advantage of them because "well they just wanted a green card" is entirely wrong and should not be acceptable under any circumstances.

    Typically a "high risk" investment would also offer a potentially high ROI if it succeeds. In the case of many EB5 projects, it is the exact opposite. They are "high risk" with exceptionally low ROIs even in cases where the projects are fully successful. So again, don't kid yourself into thinking the investors did it for any reason other than the fact that they could basically "buy" a green card by loaning money that they would most likely get back with maybe a tiny bit of interest. That has nothing to do with the fraud issue though and is just a general description of EB5. The fraud issue is fraud and people should be held accountable.

  10. #1410
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdskier View Post
    Don't know where you pulled that correlation from out of what I said. Maybe other people have said that in the past, but I certainly didn't in my post here. I agree 110% that losing the money to fraudsters is not ok and should be investigated/prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That has absolutely no relevance to the fact that the primary reason they "invested" in the first place is to get a green card. I fully agree that taking advantage of them because "well they just wanted a green card" is entirely wrong and should not be acceptable under any circumstances.

    Typically a "high risk" investment would also offer a potentially high ROI if it succeeds. In the case of many EB5 projects, it is the exact opposite. They are "high risk" with exceptionally low ROIs even in cases where the projects are fully successful. So again, don't kid yourself into thinking the investors did it for any reason other than the fact that they could basically "buy" a green card by loaning money that they would most likely get back with maybe a tiny bit of interest. That has nothing to do with the fraud issue though and is just a general description of EB5. The fraud issue is fraud and people should be held accountable.
    The argument you and others raise is that they SHOULD have expected to lose their money because these are high-risk investments and the investor's primary goal was the green card. Here, that completely fails because the reason why the project were fraudulent to begin with. Fraud is not an assumed risk.
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