Seeded Moguls vs. Natural Moguls

The "Ragged HSQ Thread" has drifted in many directions and I thought it might be useful to open a new thread. In that thread, http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ng-at-HSQ-to-replace-Spear-this-summer/page27, "deadheadskier" advocated for seeding moguls because "there is not enough natural snow."

Somehow, I feel the sport is too automated. Most of us can agree that machine made snow is great base, but once there is adequate snow, the woods and the few natural snow trails provide the sweetest ways down the hill.

Now when it comes to moguls, the most important thing to their development is being skied in by good skiers. At Mad River Glen, the locals complain about how the tele skiers mess up the moguls, while at many other areas, the snowboarders get blamed.

"Outer Limits" at Killington has a reputation among the wannabes to be the ultimate bump run. The result, the mogul pattern gets so messed up that it is difficult to stay in rhythm.

One of the problems that smaller areas have: There are days when mogul runs are unskiable and the small number of mogul skiers make it of questionable value to keep the mogul run, when it could be very skiable if it were groomed (read: flattened). A few seasons ago, Crotched Mountain's GM after a 6 inch storm end in a 1/2 inch of icy (i.e. nasty breakable crust) told Snowsports: "If you want to keep your mogul field, you are going to have to groom it by side-stepping it." About 20 instructors did so and we kept the mogul run!

IMO, seeded bumps are a cheat and take away one of the few remaining natural aspects of the sport. Comments?

We have had this thread / discussion about 97 times on here if you do a search. :lol:

Any bump fan will prefer good natural bumps over seeded. The only Southern NH ski areas with decent bumps (consistently) are places that seed (Sunapee) or hammer a particular trail with snowmaking (Pats). As for the rest, Crotched, Ragged, Gunstock.....awful bumps 95% of the season. I've had season passes at all 3 to experience this.

Seeded bumps are easy to make and require less snowmaking and groomer man power than building a terrain park. It only provides another terrain option for people to enjoy. One need only look at CT's tiny Ski Sundown to see the success they've had in offering a seeded bump product.

I don't view a seeded bump run as a cheat. IMO, its another type of terrain skiers and riders can try.

As far as an area seeding them or letting them naturally form. Letting them form with natural snow, rider and skiers is a crap shoot. Its not a given what type of formation and cadence will form. The other problem I see with natural trails is the troughs will burn out due to a warm spell. I see this a lot at Crotched.

When the field gets seeded, most places will pack down a base for the bumps, so its protected from the winter thaw. The seeding itself protects the formation from skiers/rider trying to learn how to ski them. What usually happens is the field gets split into sections with easy bumps while the other section which has one or two lines that forms nicely with deep troughs. This way, the folks still learning can still ski the easier section. As the OP knows, progression is one of the keys to getting better in skiing and riding.
When the bumps gets bullet proof, it's still skiable as long there's no flat long sections. In this case, you have rely on good absorption and extension to control the decent down.

jack97 said:

I don't view a seeded bump run as a cheat. IMO, its another type of terrain skiers and riders can try.

As far as an area seeding them or letting them naturally form. Letting them form with natural snow, rider and skiers is a crap shoot. Its not a given what type of formation and cadence will form. The other problem I see with natural trails is the troughs will burn out due to a warm spell. I see this a lot at Crotched.

When the field gets seeded, most places will pack down a base for the bumps, so its protected from the winter thaw. The seeding itself protects the formation from skiers/rider trying to learn how to ski them. What usually happens is the field gets split into sections with easy bumps while the other section which has one or two lines that forms nicely with deep troughs. This way, the folks still learning can still ski the easier section. As the OP knows, progression is one of the keys to getting better in skiing and riding.
When the bumps gets bullet proof, it's still skiable as long there's no flat long sections. In this case, you have rely on good absorption and extension to control the decent down.

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Genetically Modified Snow ...LOL

jack97 said:

... The other problem I see with natural trails is the troughs will burn out due to a warm spell. I see this a lot at Crotched.

...

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Troughs burning through are particularly a problem at CM where the main mogul run, the east side of Pluto's, is beyond the reach of the snowguns which are on the west side of the trail. Two seasons ago, UFO/Equinox was nicely bumped up after being buried in machine-made-snow. I'm not sure why that was not done last season. Half the problem with judging mogul runs of smaller ski areas are the policy decisions made by management on a year-to-year, sometimes day-to-day, basis.

To deadheadskier: Sorry about starting an oft repeated thread. I suggest that the quantity of responses would indicate that people still want to talk about it.

deadheadskier said:

Any bump fan will prefer good natural bumps over seeded.

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i'm not sure but seem to recall Greg making a passionate argument that seeded bumps were preferable over natural.


for me bumps are like boobs.. natural or man-made, if i get to play with them i'm happy.

joshua segal said:

Two seasons ago, UFO/Equinox was nicely bumped up after being buried in machine-made-snow. I'm not sure why that was not done last season.

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UFO was at least 1/2 bumped for most of Feb-March last year. It was flattened a couple of times after thaw freeze cycles. The bumps in the woods were amazing in March!

Where I ski (SR) there is one seeded bump run, for the freestyle program and it's rarely open to the public. So my experience in seeded bumps is nil. Skiing is fun when it's unpredictable and natural. Those who can't find bumps day in and day out are not looking hard enough. Or maybe they should get used to snaking down 4' of ungroomed on side of trail lol, that'll get you bumps - at least in the grooming mecca of SR. If you need seeded bumps to actually 'do' bumps, then you really can't 'do' bumps :razz:

SkiFanE said:

Those who can't find bumps day in and day out are not looking hard enough.

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You ski Sunday River. Easy to say from there. I had a pass there for a couple of years too and never complained. I could always find something resembling a mogul and quite often there were good bumps to be had at various places around the hill. Areas like Crotched, Ragged, Gunstock, you often don't find squat and if you do, they tend to be GS push piles. And at Sunday River if there are days where even the sides of the trails weren't a little bumpy and the woods aren't skiable? Well, you have long steeper trails to keep you entertained for the day. The non-mogul / non-tree terrain at Crotched, Gunstock, Ragged get's real boring, real fast for an advanced skier.

That's why I think the smaller areas need to seed a trail and manage it like they do their terrain parks.

Quietman said:

UFO was at least 1/2 bumped for most of Feb-March last year. It was flattened a couple of times after thaw freeze cycles. The bumps in the woods were amazing in March!

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UFO is the perfect trail at Crotched for them to seed. Seed the skiers left side of the trail with 3-4 lanes, leave the skiers right side groomed for the non-bumpers. You've got the fan guns right there to refresh things when it gets too scratchy.

deadheadskier said:

You ski Sunday River. Easy to say from there. I had a pass there for a couple of years too and never complained. I could always find something resembling a mogul and quite often there were good bumps to be had at various places around the hill. Areas like Crotched, Ragged, Gunstock, you often don't find squat and if you do, they tend to be GS push piles. And at Sunday River if there are days where even the sides of the trails weren't a little bumpy and the woods aren't skiable? Well, you have long steeper trails to keep you entertained for the day. The non-mogul / non-tree terrain at Crotched, Gunstock, Ragged get's real boring, real fast for an advanced skier.

That's why I think the smaller areas need to seed a trail and manage it like they do their terrain parks.

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Why I'm not at any of those places. Really... About 20 years ago husband and I got free Gunstock tickets. Hadn't been since I was a little kid...so we took a day trip. Within 30mins we knew our day was wasted...so small. So we went to their really cute, and cheap, pub...got ourselves liquored up with black russians by 11am and then had a pretty fun day

Don't mean to be crass/snotty...whatever... but there is a GOOD reason we ski at a big mountain, we like variety and challenge. So yeah...seed away at the small places if that's all that can be done.

I gave it a shot for a couple of years with passes at all of those places due to the convenience factor, but the lack of bumps has had me put my wallet away. I read about Sundown and how the CT skiers get their little hill down the street with some bumps to enjoy and say, "Why not here in NH?"

This year I'm roaming. Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars.

deadheadskier said:

We have had this thread / discussion about 97 times on here if you do a search. :lol:

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At least that many times! :lol: When I saw the title I wondered how old the thread was..

deadheadskier said:

That's why I think the smaller areas need to seed a trail and manage it like they do their terrain parks.

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Agreed. Without seeding at smaller areas (particularly those without a lot of natural snow) the bumps would be crappy at best, or most likely non-existent.

I like the seeded bumps at Sunapee. They are fun. Preferable to no bumps.

To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. And beyond Stowe and Mad River among the large areas, and Whaleback for the small areas, who doesn't have significant runouts if you want to ski the full vertical of an area?

gmcunni said: "i'm not sure but seem to recall Greg making a passionate argument that seeded bumps were preferable over natural."
Those kinds of seeded bumps are mostly for competition and uniformity is the watch word. IMO, that's not skiing and the coaches should be held criminally responsible for the knee replacement surgery that most of the competitors will need by age 40.

Amen to SkiFanE's comment, "If you need seeded bumps to actually 'do' bumps, then you really can't 'do' bumps."

To the comment, "The non-mogul / non-tree terrain at Crotched, Gunstock, Ragged get's real boring, real fast for an advanced skier."
Anyone getting bored at those areas doesn't understand the spiritual aspects of skiing. Want to know more? Check http:/SkiKabbalah.com/

deadheadskier said, "UFO is the perfect trail at Crotched for them to seed..."
Actually, they seeded the east side of Magnitude (a.k.a. The Upper Park, a.k.a. the Valley Chair Lift Line) last winter. It never gained popularity.

deadheadskier said, "... Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars."
Cannon is great, but the bump runs off Zoomer are less than 1000 vertical.

joshua segal said:

To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. And beyond Stowe and Mad River among the large areas, and Whaleback for the small areas, who doesn't have significant runouts if you want to ski the full vertical of an area?

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Wildcat, Cannon have no runout.

[/QUOTE]deadheadskier said, "... Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars."
Cannon is great, but the bump runs off Zoomer are less than 1000 vertical.[/QUOTE]

upper to middle Hardscrabble are great bump runs as well and when Taft is bumped up running into those.

Smellytele said:

Wildcat, Cannon have no runout.

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With Cannon, I was thinking of the Peabody side. If you come down the tram side, you are right.

deadheadskier said, "... Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars."

Cannon is great, but the bump runs off Zoomer are less than 1000 vertical.

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upper to middle Hardscrabble are great bump runs as well and when Taft is bumped up running into those.

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A lot of seasons, these runs aren't even open! I first skied Cannon in 1969. Last season was the first time I ever skied the Tram Lift Line! Places without machine-made snow at Cannon can be pretty marginal. Two seasons ago, Mittersill was open for less than 10 days!

joshua segal said:

To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. ...

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I don't agree with that. While I can, and will, find fun in smaller mountains, that my grandmother can lap without stopping, I really enjoy the variety in terrain at different elevations a bigger area can offer; and stopping to smell the bark (aka roses) is fine too.

joshua segal said:

To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. And beyond Stowe and Mad River among the large areas, and Whaleback for the small areas, who doesn't have significant runouts if you want to ski the full vertical of an area?

So because someone stops and doesn't ski TtB a mountain is too big for them? First I ever heard someone say that. Big difference between taking a 20 second break and corralling skiing partners vs. riding a lift for 5-10 minutes between active skiing times. Also, plenty of the small areas have bad run outs as well. Crotched and Ragged's aren't too bad, but on par with many larger areas. Gunstock has perhaps the worst run out of any mountain in NH.

gmcunni said: "i'm not sure but seem to recall Greg making a passionate argument that seeded bumps were preferable over natural."
Those kinds of seeded bumps are mostly for competition and uniformity is the watch word. IMO, that's not skiing and the coaches should be held criminally responsible for the knee replacement surgery that most of the competitors will need by age 40.

Oh, the coaches should be responsible for injuries? Not the youth who looked at the pros on TV and said that looks like fun? Are you suggesting USSA dump it's freestyle program and tell the thousands of youth who enjoy it to go screw?

With this bold of statement, I'm assuming you don't consider terrain parks skiing and mountains should get rid of them as well?

Amen to SkiFanE's comment, "If you need seeded bumps to actually 'do' bumps, then you really can't 'do' bumps."

And if you read further on she said, seeding bumps does make sense for smaller areas.

To the comment, "The non-mogul / non-tree terrain at Crotched, Gunstock, Ragged get's real boring, real fast for an advanced skier."
Anyone getting bored at those areas doesn't understand the spiritual aspects of skiing. Want to know more? Check http:/SkiKabbalah.com/

Everyone has a different appreciation for sliding on snow. If you find your zen skiing and skating down Easy Winder at Ragged, good for you. Not everyone thinks like you, nor should they. Individuality is what makes the world great.

deadheadskier said, "UFO is the perfect trail at Crotched for them to seed..."
Actually, they seeded the east side of Magnitude (a.k.a. The Upper Park, a.k.a. the Valley Chair Lift Line) last winter. It never gained popularity.

I'm aware. Had a pass there last year. That was about the most pathetic excuse for seeded bumps I've ever seen. Also, flat as a pancake. It's no wonder no one skied them.

deadheadskier said, "... Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars."
Cannon is great, but the bump runs off Zoomer are less than 1000 vertical.

Did I ask for more than 1000 vertical of bumps? Nope, said UFO is fine and only half the trail. Fairly low angle, but not flat like Magnitude, maybe 300 vert and probably all of 3 acres of Crotched's 100 acres of terrain.

I grew up skiing Okemo, when Sel's Choice was the only bump run there was and it was the top of Sel's at that. 300 vert or so. Had a blast. And for the record, I'm a year shy of 40 and my knees *knock on wood* feel great. Racer's blow out their knees too you know?

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Okay, so we've established that not only are you against seeded bumps, but you also have very little tolerance for other skiers who enjoy them and have a preference for different kinds of skiing than you do.

In your quest to find your personal Zen, you might also make an effort towards respecting and accepting the diverse interests of everyone else who enjoys the sport.

With all the thaw, rain, freeze cycles early last season it was hard to find bumps anywhere. They had to groom everything otherwise it was unskiable. I'm a K regular & K is known for some of their bump runs. Last Jan. you couldn't find a bump on the mountain.