Changes to WV Green Peak

Higgl said:

That's fair to say for sure. I'm not saying its an incredibly advanced mountain, but compared to anything else near in NH except for South Peak Loon and Wildcat, it's the best out there. VT and Maine obviously have it crushed though. There's a reason BBTS is such a good race program. A Tecumsah expansion would certainly change everything including more expert offerings which I'm always game for, but the land is forest service land isn't it? I was always under the impression Waterville couldn't expand because of both a lack of ownership desire/ability and a lack of available land.

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http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/watervillevalley/mttecumseh.php

It sounds like its been discussed. Who knows if they had permits at one point. Lots of ski areas operate on US Forrest service land. It does make expansion difficult, but not impossible.

Well I can only hope! Maybe in twenty years they'll have new expert and beginner terrain and then everyone will be happy. Until then I'll just be sad and ski elsewhere.

Higgl said:

I'm not saying its an incredibly advanced mountain, but compared to anything else near in NH except for South Peak Loon and Wildcat, it's the best out there. VT and Maine obviously have it crushed though.

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Hmmmm, I can think of a few local spots you might be overlooking.....

Higgl said:

... I'm not saying its an incredibly advanced mountain, but compared to anything else near in NH except for South Peak Loon and Wildcat, it's the best out there. ...

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Well, at minimum, there's Attitash and Cannon and some would argue for a few others.

I would argue that Ragged, Wildcat, Cannon, Loon, Attitash, Black (upper mtn and glades), and sections of Whaleback are all tougher than WVs advanced offerings

Higgl said:

World Cup, Abandon, The Chute, and the regular blacks off Sunnyside are enough to keep most racers and advanced non glade loving people happy at least. Glades are certainly a different story though. Except for Wildcat, prior to Loon's South Peak expansion Waterville had by far the best reliable advanced offerings in New Hampshire. Attitash, Ragged, Gunstock, and Cannon never has enough terrain open until mid-February practically. I'd still pick WV over Cannon if I'm looking for that kind of terrain. Now Loon I consider basically equivalent to WV, maybe a bit better, but Waterville has been known as a pretty icy steep mountain with minimal intermediate to beginner terrain and a lack of trees and bumps to some extent. Not the best formula...

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Yes I don't agree with any of those points....Waterville makes me yawn.

I'm confused. What's steeper at Ragged? Same with Attitash? Not talking about glades. Cannon and Loon nowadays are steeper, but in the early 2000s before Waterville fired everyone who knows anything about snow they had more reliable advanced trails then cannon cause cannon hardly blew snow back then and Loon had Flume cause they had not expanded yet.

True Grit, Upper Bobby's, and world cup I think are all more exhilarating than anything at Attitash for sure, Ragged has showboat which is on par with Tommy's but until this season it sucked cause of that triple.

After expanding I would agree Loon is steeper, and Black and Whaleback maybe, but I still like the Sunnyside area better than Whaleback or Black.

Higgl said:

I'm confused. What's steeper at Ragged? Same with Attitash? Not talking about glades. Cannon and Loon nowadays are steeper, but in the early 2000s before Waterville fired everyone who knows anything about snow they had more reliable advanced trails then cannon cause cannon hardly blew snow back then and Loon had Flume cause they had not expanded yet.

True Grit, Upper Bobby's, and world cup I think are all more exhilarating than anything at Attitash for sure, Ragged has showboat which is on par with Tommy's but until this season it sucked cause of that triple.

After expanding I would agree Loon is steeper, and Black and Whaleback maybe, but I still like the Sunnyside area better than Whaleback or Black.

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I agree...you are confused

Attitash and Cannon have the steepest trail skiing in NH. Nothing at Waterville is even as close to as steep as Avalanche or Paulie's at Cannon. Middle Ptarmigan at Attitash I believe is the steepest trail in the state of NH. Steep doesn't always equal challenge though. Hardscrabble at Cannon is more challenging than anything at Waterville. I've never skied Tramline at Cannon, but it also is obviously far more difficult than anything at Waterville.

Wildcat actually isn't a very steep mountain at all. The only real legitimate challenge for trails there is Hairball and that's due to obstacles / air time. The Cat does have some challenging trees.

Ragged has a huge amount of trees, several with some technical aspects. Same goes for Black.

Like I said, I find Waterville to very much be an Intermediate pitched mountain. One of the least challenging mountains in NH. It sounds like I'm not alone in that opinion.

It does have loads of potential though......hope someone in invests in that potential.

Cannon I agree with you on for sure, though the last time I was at Attitash a few years ago I remember being very disappointed.

Ragged's trees are amazing, yes, but trail offerings I get bored with.

I don't consider Waterville an advanced mountain, I just always considered it one of the steeper ones in NH, but admittedly I'm wrong about that. Sorry if I offended anyone

Ragged has lots of steep "moments". The mountain itself isn't the steepest but upper sweepstakes, cabin fever, The Ravine, Showboat and especially triple take. Triple Take has a wicked nosedive.

Wildcat's lift line is extremly challenging when thin cover. Feline and Hairball are pretty damn challenging.
For Waterville, I found it to be......meh. Probably my least favorite place in New Hampshire after Attitash and Bretton Woods. It has some good, steep trails, but nothing to write home about. Sunnyside triple area was my favorite spot. Waterville really needs to expand, but really? The World Cup Triple? They need an express if they want to keep up with the big boys.

I even found Pat's Peak to be steeper than WV.

deadheadskier said:

Wildcat actually isn't a very steep mountain at all. The only real legitimate challenge for trails there is Hairball and that's due to obstacles / air time. The Cat does have some challenging trees.

It does have loads of potential though......hope someone in invests in that potential.

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The Cat doesn't have very many sheer steeps, if any, such as the front five at Cannon or something like True Grit, but what rocks about Wildcat is that it actually feels like you're skiing in the woods and can get alone into your own little world. Narrow trails that have half decent pitch and roll with the mountain are wonderful, like Upper Wildcat. Those trails can also be challenging though, especially when at thin cover.

The most difficult trail at WV I think is Tommy's. I've seen people break bones by taking the knolls badly, given they were doing gates, but solid racers who just slipped up for a second. No other race trail in Buddy Warner is like that. True Grit is probably less steep than that one offering at Attitash, Ripsaw at Loon's South Peak, and Cannon's stuff for sure. There's a reason I don't really ski there anymore.

I believe that at WV, expanding to Tecumseh proper is out of the question. It's along the lines of Wildcat expanding anywhere, the USFS doesn't want skiing over there. Tecumseh is a 4000' White Mountain National Forest gem of a mountain. I could be wrong because this is second hand knowledge from my friend who skied for BBTS for 10 years with me and is still involved with the program a bit, but I think Green peak is just about it.

While WV doesn't offer the advanced options like Cannon, they do need more beginner terrain and low level intermediate. As mentioned earlier, the only green on the entire mountain is Valley Run, and that last pitch of the trail scares the daylights out of some people even. The blues on the mountain are not ski-able by beginners and Waterville hasn't been doing the best job recently with snowmaking or grooming. Waterville is losing business I think to Gunstock, Ragged somewhat, and primarily Loon, and the people choosing Gunstock over WV are certainly not going there because they think Gunstock is a more advanced mountain. If Sunapee expands like they currently are attempting, it very well could be game over for Waterville if they never get anything better than a triple going like 450fps...

A conveyor wouldn't help that lift too much either, I don't think it's possible to permit a triple going much over 500fps, and I think the triple is currently allowed to be run at 475fps.

Moving the WC triple is a really sucky solution, but like Higgl said, maybe if Green Peak can get online someone would want to buy Waterville and try and save it.

Edd said:

I was told this week that the village in Waterville was open container. Can anyone confirm that?

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Can always rely on you to ask the important questions

deadheadskier said:

Attitash and Cannon have the steepest trail skiing in NH. Nothing at Waterville is even as close to as steep as Avalanche or Paulie's at Cannon. Middle Ptarmigan at Attitash I believe is the steepest trail in the state of NH. Steep doesn't always equal challenge though. Hardscrabble at Cannon is more challenging than anything at Waterville. I've never skied Tramline at Cannon, but it also is obviously far more difficult than anything at Waterville.

Wildcat actually isn't a very steep mountain at all. The only real legitimate challenge for trails there is Hairball and that's due to obstacles / air time. The Cat does have some challenging trees.

Ragged has a huge amount of trees, several with some technical aspects. Same goes for Black.

Like I said, I find Waterville to very much be an Intermediate pitched mountain. One of the least challenging mountains in NH. It sounds like I'm not alone in that opinion.

It does have loads of potential though......hope someone in invests in that potential.

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I agree about Attitash, it may be a little Vanilla but its really quite steep.

Yep and Cannon. for just steep direct groomer its tramway to Bypass to paulis ext to Avalanche. 2146 feet in a hurry.

deadheadskier said:

I've never skied Tramline at Cannon

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^This might be the only point in this entire thread worth mentioning... This needs to change!

I skied waterville once or twice in high school. It seemed pretty darn boring. I've never felt compelled to go back. I will agree with some others here: it seems like a solid intermediate mountain.


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Higgl said:

Ragged's trees are amazing, yes, but trail offerings I get bored with.

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For sure. Had a pass there for 2 years. The skiing there gets incredibly boring when the glades aren't in play. So, its a really fun place for about 6 weeks a season.

deadheadskier said:

Attitash and Cannon have the steepest trail skiing in NH. Nothing at Waterville is even as close to as steep as Avalanche or Paulie's at Cannon. Middle Ptarmigan at Attitash I believe is the steepest trail in the state of NH. Steep doesn't always equal challenge though. Hardscrabble at Cannon is more challenging than anything at Waterville. I've never skied Tramline at Cannon, but it also is obviously far more difficult than anything at Waterville.

Wildcat actually isn't a very steep mountain at all. The only real legitimate challenge for trails there is Hairball and that's due to obstacles / air time. The Cat does have some challenging trees.

Ragged has a huge amount of trees, several with some technical aspects. Same goes for Black.

Like I said, I find Waterville to very much be an Intermediate pitched mountain. One of the least challenging mountains in NH. It sounds like I'm not alone in that opinion.

It does have loads of potential though......hope someone in invests in that potential.

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The only challenge at Wildcat is Hairball? The section under the HSQ with massive boulders, Feline, Al's can all be challenging IMO. I would put all of those ahead of Hardscrabble and any of the Front Five.

Savemeasammy said:

(Referring to the tram line at Cannon): This might be the only point in this entire thread worth mentioning... This needs to change!

...

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I'm not even sure you can count that as a trail. To be sure it may be the most exciting lift serviced run in NH, but there are many years when it never opens. No snowmaking, huge boulders, etc. I first skied Cannon in 1969 and last season was the first time I skied the Tramline T2B. Even with all the snow last season, it still took some skill to avoid some of the outcroppings.

Sounds awesome. I may be getting a Cannon pass next season. Hopefully if I get in 20 days in a season there I luck out and Tramline is open one of them.

deadheadskier said:

Sounds awesome. I may be getting a Cannon pass next season. Hopefully if I get in 20 days in a season there I luck out and Tramline is open one of them.

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Don't forget to find some days that the Mittersill side is open. It too is a special place.