Vermont Auditor: Should the State Re-Evaluate Ski Area Leases?

VTKilarney · Feb 17, 2015

What's puzzling is that the Auditor chose to put substantial time and effort into studying leases that aren't coming due for decades - and even if they were coming due the amount of potential additional revenues in play is only about $3 million. As much as I am a fan of counting every penny, this pales in comparison to what the state has squandered on other matters that they can actually fix. Just look at how much the state has squandered on IT projects as an example.

You have to wonder if there is a bigger agenda at work here - and if ski areas are in the cross hairs of that agenda. If that is indeed the case, look for a lot of tax exemptions enjoyed by ski areas to evaporate. Sadly, if pressure is turned up on ski areas it's places like Cochran's and Magic Mountain that will suffer much more than the huge corporate owned areas. Wouldn't it be ironic if competition was squeezed out of the marketplace so that the big corporations are the sole survivors enjoying even greater market share?

AdironRider · Feb 17, 2015

Love how they gloss over the fact that the State of VT is already getting a sweetheart deal at 5% of revenue compared to the 2-3% most ski leases typically generate.

And it still isn't enough. It is one thing to be government and reneg on a deal, I think it jumps into a whole other realm when they already are getting a great deal as it is.

BenedictGomez · Feb 17, 2015

thetrailboss said:
Oh I bet he would laugh at them when they try to "renegotiate" his lease.

As he should.

AdironRider said:
What amazes me is the gall of the VT population. They really think everything a business makes belongs to them. Otherwise they are "selfish". The business? What about the people of VT demanding others pay their way for everything. Seems like the selfish problem is with the citizens themselves.

It's been getting worse and worse up there. When I left 12 years ago the insane asylum was making inroads into the government, now they are the government.

thetrailboss · Feb 17, 2015

VTKilarney said:
What's puzzling is that the Auditor chose to put substantial time and effort into studying leases that aren't coming due for decades - and even if they were coming due the amount of potential additional revenues in play is only about $3 million. As much as I am a fan of counting every penny, this pales in comparison to what the state has squandered on other matters that they can actually fix. Just look at how much the state has squandered on IT projects as an example.

You have to wonder if there is a bigger agenda at work here - and if ski areas are in the cross hairs of that agenda. If that is indeed the case, look for a lot of tax exemptions enjoyed by ski areas to evaporate. Sadly, if pressure is turned up on ski areas it's places like Cochran's and Magic Mountain that will suffer much more than the huge corporate owned areas. Wouldn't it be ironic if competition was squeezed out of the marketplace so that the big corporations are the sole survivors enjoying even greater market share?

It's called politics. Instead of dealing with the $100 million elephant in the room (the failed launch of the health website), we dink around with $3 million leases because that will fly under the radar. If you read the comments you see that Hoffer is now backing off...especially after Dean weighed in.

Sen. Ashe apparently wants some leverage to try to beat more money out of folks. He's threatened to revoke tax exemptions for ski area equipment.

These guys are unreal.

thetrailboss · Feb 17, 2015

BenedictGomez said:
It's been getting worse and worse up there. When I left 12 years ago the insane asylum was making inroads into the government, now they are the government.

+ 1. I don't even feel comfortable visiting my home state. I don't even recognize things up there.

Those in power are so obsessed with getting every penny that they can that they don't realize that they are driving the average guy out of the state.

BenedictGomez · Feb 17, 2015

thetrailboss said:
+ 1. I don't even feel comfortable visiting my home state. I don't even recognize things up there.

Those in power are so obsessed with getting every penny that they can that they don't realize that they are driving the average guy out of the state.

Vermonters are leaving Vermont, but they are being replaced by people moving to Vermont from New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. In other words, people who already have money can afford Vermont, but people who don't - cannot.

VTKilarney · Feb 17, 2015

Reading the comments on the VTDigger article is pretty scary. Someone said that the percentage of ticket sales that is turned over to the state to the state needs to be increased because there has been inflation since the percentage was set. Think about that one for a minute.

This is taken directly from the conclusion of the Auditor's report:
But, as the resorts have evolved, that revenue source [ticket sales] has become one of many. The result is that revenues from lease payments have not kept pace with development as measured by the sale of goods and services, property values, and excise taxes.

I'm no business expert, but aren't the goods sold by ski areas already taxed? Aren't food and beverage sales already taxed? Isn't property already taxed? Aren't there already excise taxes on the fuel used by ski areas and the alcohol sold by ski areas?

I certainly appreciate that the state is trying to be compensated in excess of these taxes for economic activity taking place on state land, but the idea that there is a free lunch is absurd.

thetrailboss · Feb 17, 2015

BenedictGomez said:
Vermonters are leaving Vermont, but they are being replaced by people moving to Vermont from New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. In other words, people who already have money can afford Vermont, but people who don't - cannot.

There are two kinds of people moving to Vermont: those in need of services and public benefits or those with means who don't care.

There is one kind of person primarily leaving Vermont: young individuals either in the prime of their careers or just starting them.

They are replacing "givers" to the system with "takers" and they don't understand that basic fact.

VTKilarney · Feb 17, 2015

Only four states have seen a bigger decrease in the percentage of 25-34 year olds between 1990 and 2004. But there must be more to the story than politics. New Hampshire is one of those four states, right behind Vermont.

Anecdotal, I can tell you that it is insanely difficult to recruit qualified professionals to any part of the state of Vermont other than Chittenden County.

The hippies that moved here en masse in the 1970's did so because they didn't want government telling them how to live their lives. Those ex-hippies now can't get enough of government intervention in people's lives.

thetrailboss · Feb 17, 2015

VTKilarney said:
Only four states have seen a bigger decrease in the percentage of 25-34 year olds between 1990 and 2004. But there must be more to the story than politics. New Hampshire is one of those four states, right behind Vermont.

It's a demographic shift due to economics and politics. A lot of "traditional" industries in NNE are dying. As a result a lot of those workers are moving.

VTKilarney · Feb 17, 2015

thetrailboss said:
It's a demographic shift due to economics and politics. A lot of "traditional" industries in NNE are dying. As a result a lot of those workers are moving.

Generally speaking, the northeast states have seen the biggest loss. I know lots of people that live in the southeast that pay a fraction of the property taxes that we pay in the northeast and also a fraction of the heating and cooling expenses. And they are quick to remind you of that fact.

deadheadskier · Feb 17, 2015

Well except for Boston. Boston area population is growing faster than it has in decades. Not many places better in the country right now for good jobs.

thetrailboss · Feb 17, 2015

deadheadskier said:
Well except for Boston. Boston area population is growing faster than it has in decades. Not many places better in the country right now for good jobs.

Right. Folks migrating back to the urban areas. I will say that when you factor in the ridiculous cost of living that the pay is not THAT great in Boston.

SnowRock · Feb 17, 2015

VTKilarney said:
This is taken directly from the conclusion of the Auditor's report:
But, as the resorts have evolved, that revenue source [ticket sales] has become one of many. The result is that revenues from lease payments have not kept pace with development as measured by the sale of goods and services, property values, and excise taxes.

I'm no business expert, but aren't the goods sold by ski areas already taxed? Aren't food and beverage sales already taxed? Isn't property already taxed? Aren't there already excise taxes on the fuel used by ski areas and the alcohol sold by ski areas?

I certainly appreciate that the state is trying to be compensated in excess of these taxes for economic activity taking place on state land, but the idea that there is a free lunch is absurd.

Yeah I took a quick read of the report and thought the same thing..... harps on lease revenue not keeping pace with property values then almost glosses over the tax revenue generated by that same development on private land surrounding the resorts (and the fact that those revenues increase as property value increases).

VTKilarney · Feb 17, 2015

deadheadskier said:
Well except for Boston. Boston area population is growing faster than it has in decades. Not many places better in the country right now for good jobs.

Boston and New York City are doing just fine and young people are moving to these cities. Even so, Massachusetts was one of the overall losers of young people. Keep in mind that the stats are from 1990-2004. There were some boom and bust times for Boston during that period. This could have affected Massachusett's overall rating.

BenedictGomez · Feb 17, 2015

thetrailboss said:
There are two kinds of people moving to Vermont: those in need of services and public benefits or those with means who don't care.

There is one kind of person primarily leaving Vermont: young individuals either in the prime of their careers or just starting them. They are replacing "givers" to the system with "takers" and they don't understand that basic fact.

Pretty much; and this is a HUGE systemic problem with long-term implications, but in the short-term it's being partially masked by the well-healed people moving to Vermont. I believe it's going to get ugly up there.

deadheadskier · Feb 17, 2015

thetrailboss said:
Right. Folks migrating back to the urban areas. I will say that when you factor in the ridiculous cost of living that the pay is not THAT great in Boston.

Live along the 495 belt and cost of living isn't that much worse than chittenden county. Food is far cheaper in MA compared to VT. Or you could do what I do and live over the border and realize an even greater savings.

And you're an attorney. I've got acquaintances who have received offers of $150k+ out of school in top Boston firms. How common is that in most places around the country?

Never mind the city overtaking Silicon valley as the Biotechnology capital of the country.

People are definitely leaving Northern New England for other destinations, and often that destination is Boston.....not Austin, Atlanta etc

MadMadWorld · Feb 17, 2015

Two large companies decided to settle down in the Boston metro area....Draft Kings and Star Street. If you don't know what these guys do then go check it out. The industry is blowing up and they are hiring like crazy

SkiRaceParent · Feb 18, 2015

BenedictGomez said:
Pretty much; and this is a HUGE systemic problem with long-term implications, but in the short-term it's being partially masked by the well-healed people moving to Vermont. I believe it's going to get ugly up there.

There are a lot of other states where I'd be a lot more worried than I am in Vermont about these issues....low population, strong tourism and natural resources and beauty will go a long way to keeping it sustainable. I agree there's an element of communism/socialism which needs to be neutralized in the standing government, but I feel like the tide is shifting (slowly) away from that direction.

AdironRider · Feb 18, 2015

All those reasons you mention are exactly why you should be worried about VT more. Every family or business that packs up and leaves has a much larger effect on the resources the state has available compared to the same in Jersey or Illinois (which are the two other states that come to my mind that worry me).

Vermont Auditor: Should the State Re-Evaluate Ski Area Leases?

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