Saddleback

AdironRider · Mar 23, 2018

The Berry's just need to realize that it's not worth more than the land it sits on.

Which is a substantial amount of acres if memory serves, so its not worth nothing.

Along those lines it is surprising it hasn't sold as a timber investment at least. Kinda surprising the same thing hasn't happened at Maple Valley also.

deadheadskier · Mar 23, 2018

The thing about Saddleback though is it has incredible lakes all right next to it. There's not a place in the East with that big of a mountain with such a fantastic summertime assett next to it.

If I were a southern Maine resident looking for a vacation property, I'd easily pick Saddleback over Loaf.

If someone could just keep it going on a shoestring budget kind of like Magic and then over the years more second home buyers gradually creep in, perhaps it could have a chance. I'm sure that's what the Berry's were thinking when they dumped $40M into the place. I wonder had they replaced the Rangeley before the Kennebago T if this story would have played out differently

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Jully · Mar 23, 2018

deadheadskier said:
The thing about Saddleback though is it has incredible lakes all right next to it. There's not a place in the East with that big of a mountain with such a fantastic summertime assett next to it.

If I were a southern Maine resident looking for a vacation property, I'd easily pick Saddleback over Loaf.

If someone could just keep it going on a shoestring budget kind of like Magic and then over the years more second home buyers gradually creep in, perhaps it could have a chance. I'm sure that's what the Berry's were thinking when they dumped $40M into the place. I wonder had they replaced the Rangeley before the Kennebago T if this story would have played out differently

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The issue is Rangeley is just so dead in the winter AND the resort is 7 miles away from town anyway. It has to draw skiers first, IMO, and it is really hard when you have a lively Bethel or SL base area in the winter. Lively being relatively speaking of course, but definitely more happening than Rangeley between November and May. I stayed on mountain a few times and you really feel like you're in the middle of no where. I love it, but I think most Southern ME residents or Boston Metro residents aren't looking for that much wilderness. The average skiing family or couple wants some resorty activities to do in addition to pure skiing. It would take a herculean effort (and bank account) to build up SB to have it feel anything but the most remote ski area in NE (except maybe Big Rock). It is possible though, looking at Jay Peak as an example haha.

If SL's infrastructure could be duplicated at Saddleback, I would definitely own there before Sugarloaf too though.

I'm not so sure if things would have played out different if the Rangeley was replaced first unfortunately. The fact that the Berry family dropped $40 million into the place and it still has the infrastructure hurdles it has (lodge that is too small (supposedly), rangeley lift, no base development) is telling. I imagine a good amount of the $40 million had to have been into snowmaking, right? I don't hear about a lack of snowmaking infrastructure like you typically hear at places like SB (e.g. Magic).

VTKilarney · Mar 23, 2018

deadheadskier said:
The thing about Saddleback though is it has incredible lakes all right next to it. There's not a place in the East with that big of a mountain with such a fantastic summertime assett next to it.

Owl’s head comes pretty close.

AdironRider · Mar 23, 2018

Jully said:
The issue is Rangeley is just so dead in the winter AND the resort is 7 miles away from town anyway. It has to draw skiers first, IMO, and it is really hard when you have a lively Bethel or SL base area in the winter. Lively being relatively speaking of course, but definitely more happening than Rangeley between November and May. I stayed on mountain a few times and you really feel like you're in the middle of no where. I love it, but I think most Southern ME residents or Boston Metro residents aren't looking for that much wilderness. The average skiing family or couple wants some resorty activities to do in addition to pure skiing. It would take a herculean effort (and bank account) to build up SB to have it feel anything but the most remote ski area in NE (except maybe Big Rock). It is possible though, looking at Jay Peak as an example haha.

If SL's infrastructure could be duplicated at Saddleback, I would definitely own there before Sugarloaf too though.

I'm not so sure if things would have played out different if the Rangeley was replaced first unfortunately. The fact that the Berry family dropped $40 million into the place and it still has the infrastructure hurdles it has (lodge that is too small (supposedly), rangeley lift, no base development) is telling. I imagine a good amount of the $40 million had to have been into snowmaking, right? I don't hear about a lack of snowmaking infrastructure like you typically hear at places like SB (e.g. Magic).

Is that 40 million number legit or like what it cost them to run the mountain during their ownership. I have a hard time seeing 40 million in investment there on the surface at least.

bdfreetuna · Mar 23, 2018

I really can't handle the notion of Saddleback going NELSAP. It would be the greatest NELSAP tragedy to date.

Only got to ski there 2 days ever and dammit there isn't a single mountain I'm more eager to return to.

If I won the lottery I would literally buy Saddleback #1 and #2 figure out the rest.

Too bad most people never knew how incredible their terrain is.

Funny thing is, at least for me, Sugarloaf is losing out on my business too because I'd MUCH rather make the trip to also ski Saddleback.

machski · Mar 24, 2018

AdironRider said:
Is that 40 million number legit or like what it cost them to run the mountain during their ownership. I have a hard time seeing 40 million in investment there on the surface at least.

It's probably legit. Two new Quads were installed, the Rangely double got major upgrades (entirely new base drive terminal IIRC), some trail work, a lot of Snowmaking system work and guns and the expanded and remodeled base lodge at a minimum. Could easily see that running up towards $40 mil.

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Razor · Mar 24, 2018

There has to be someone out there who realizes the potential of the Saddleback/Rangeley area. Great ski area where my kids learned to ski back in the 80s. (of course, we went there on school vacations because it was relatively uncrowded.) Great snowmobiling. Great fishing. Great boating. Could be a mini New England Lake Tahoe. Hell, maybe Rangeley needs a casino.

Rowsdower · Mar 24, 2018

Screw the typical family apres ski "attractions".

Do it like Magic did: focus on the skiing. The diehards will come and get the word out.

Edd · Mar 24, 2018

Razor said:
Could be a mini New England Lake Tahoe. Hell, maybe Rangeley needs a casino.

I’d support a brothel there at this point. That whole area is a gem. I think it’ll go big someday. Matter of time.

bdfreetuna · Mar 24, 2018

Rowsdower said:
Screw the typical family apres ski "attractions".

Do it like Magic did: focus on the skiing. The diehards will come and get the word out.

I agree. Slash the budget, forget about massive development, *any lift is fine*. Don't even need snowmaking for the most part.

Blew my mind when they announced they couldn't stay open with the Rangely Double. How the hell does Smuggler's Notch stay open then, and with a lot more people on the average day waiting in line for that slow double lift?

They have that alpine terrain, which I don't know maybe some rare bird or frog lives up there, but talk about an ideal location to have a snowcat ride.

deadheadskier · Mar 24, 2018

The issue with that terrain is the Appalachian Trail crosses it. At one point in time there was discussion of extending ski terrain across the whole ridge out even past the Horn. I recall a website for when the mountain was for sale prior to the Berry's buying it that had images of what it could look like. Would have been far and away the largest ski area in the East. The AMC shut it down. I think I recall a lawsuit to preserve the land.

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Edd · Mar 24, 2018

Like Tuna mentioned, Saddleback’s plight makes me think of Smuggs. Rugged terrain but with a family clientele, inconvenient to get to. What is Smuggs doing that Saddleback did not? Is it simply a matter of proximity to metro areas or is it more?

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bdfreetuna · Mar 24, 2018

if I'm not mistaken the backside is pretty gnarly/steep and with a lot of vertical as well.

I used to be a big hiker and AMC member -- understand their position, but I think they should have made an exception in this case. It's not as if the AT is 100% virgin terrain or anywhere close. I guess no point in ranting over that right now. But heck, a T-bar and a small warming shack would have been totally sufficient... how does that mess up your 6 month hiking adventure?

Rowsdower · Mar 24, 2018

Who even cares if they can't access the top of the ridge? It's like an extra, what 300-400 ft of vert? It's like Stowe not having access to the top of Mt Mansfield. It doesn't make the terrain any less gnarly and it provides a little something extra for the real die hards to earn their turns.

FWIW even without the AMC you'd be extremely hard pressed to establish above treeline lift-serviced terrain on the East Coast. Alpine environments here are rare, and very ecologically fragile. I wouldn't even want a lift and trails up there honestly. You're talking a handful of acres of alpine terrain left scattered across isolated peaks. Ripping it up for a few more lift served turns isn't worth it.

bdfreetuna · Mar 24, 2018

My point is mainly as a potential marketing aspect to serious or adventurous skiers. Also 300-400 feet of some of the most badass and interesting snowfield and semi-snowfield terrain. How much has Sugarloaf used their snowfields for marketing purposes? Quite successfully, and it's badass terrain as well. What Saddleback has is unique even without that though.

I think when areas are covered with snow the ecological impacts are mitigated at least to a certain extent. A few shrubs and rare flowers have to stay 20 feet to the left.

Think of Tuckerman Ravine... do we worry about the alpine ecosystem while people are trampling over the Alpine Gardens covered in snow? There are some rare alpine flowers growing in the summer in the Tuck headwall zone. They don't seem to be affected by the skiers.

I think the Auto Road is fairly obnoxious, and likewise the Cog Railway which spews black smoke and makes noise you can hear over the whole Presidential range.

What if we put our ecological concerns in perspective and applied it evenly?

deadheadskier · Mar 24, 2018

Edd said:
Like Tuna mentioned, Saddleback’s plight makes me think of Smuggs. Rugged terrain but with a family clientele, inconvenient to get to. What is Smuggs doing that Saddleback did not? Is it simply a matter of proximity to metro areas or is it more?

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It's absolutely location. Both major metro areas ( especially Montreal) and local metros. If Saddleback were 40 minutes from Augusta and Lewiston/Auburn like Smuggs is to Burlington, they'd have no problem making it work. There's about 250k people within an hour or Smuggs. There might be 25K people within an hour of Saddleback and those people have much less money to spend on recreation than local Smuggs clientele does.

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Jully · Mar 24, 2018

bdfreetuna said:
My point is mainly as a potential marketing aspect to serious or adventurous skiers. Also 300-400 feet of some of the most badass and interesting snowfield and semi-snowfield terrain. How much has Sugarloaf used their snowfields for marketing purposes? Quite successfully, and it's badass terrain as well. What Saddleback has is unique even without that though.

I think when areas are covered with snow the ecological impacts are mitigated at least to a certain extent. A few shrubs and rare flowers have to stay 20 feet to the left.

Think of Tuckerman Ravine... do we worry about the alpine ecosystem while people are trampling over the Alpine Gardens covered in snow? There are some rare alpine flowers growing in the summer in the Tuck headwall zone. They don't seem to be affected by the skiers.

I think the Auto Road is fairly obnoxious, and likewise the Cog Railway which spews black smoke and makes noise you can hear over the whole Presidential range.

What if we put our ecological concerns in perspective and applied it evenly?

It is all about what was there first. No way an auto road or a cog railway would get onto My Washington if built today. In fact people use Washington as an example of what could happen to places if we let development happen. While I certainly want a bit more development at ski areas and think many current restrictions are ludicrous, I don't think anyone who is anti development on NE's mountains is fine with Washington, they all likely are disgusted by it.

Smuggs also succeeds because of the other resorts around it. Sugarloaf is an hour from SB, not horrible, but everywhere else is a ways away. Plus the local population and proximity to Montreal as others have said. It is quite a different situation IMO. Not sure if a MRG model would ever work too. I always thought they should look more to BMOM as an example.

Jully · Mar 24, 2018

bdfreetuna said:
My point is mainly as a potential marketing aspect to serious or adventurous skiers. Also 300-400 feet of some of the most badass and interesting snowfield and semi-snowfield terrain. How much has Sugarloaf used their snowfields for marketing purposes? Quite successfully, and it's badass terrain as well. What Saddleback has is unique even without that though.

I think when areas are covered with snow the ecological impacts are mitigated at least to a certain extent. A few shrubs and rare flowers have to stay 20 feet to the left.

Think of Tuckerman Ravine... do we worry about the alpine ecosystem while people are trampling over the Alpine Gardens covered in snow? There are some rare alpine flowers growing in the summer in the Tuck headwall zone. They don't seem to be affected by the skiers.

I think the Auto Road is fairly obnoxious, and likewise the Cog Railway which spews black smoke and makes noise you can hear over the whole Presidential range.

What if we put our ecological concerns in perspective and applied it evenly?

It is all about what was there first. No way an auto road or a cog railway would get onto My Washington if built today. In fact people use Washington as an example of what could happen to places if we let development happen. While I certainly want a bit more development at ski areas and think many current restrictions are ludicrous, I don't think anyone who is anti development on NE's mountains is fine with Washington, they all likely are disgusted by it.

Smuggs also succeeds because of the other resorts around it. Sugarloaf is an hour from SB, not horrible, but everywhere else is a ways away. Plus the local population and proximity to Montreal as others have said. It is quite a different situation IMO. Not sure if a MRG model would ever work too. I always thought they should look more to BMOM as an example.

deadheadskier · Mar 24, 2018

Yes, Mt Washington is a shit show and some people want to make it worse. Just look at the whole above treeline hotel fiasco going on there now.

IMO both the auto road and cog should be shut down.

Thankfully money grubbing private interests never got their hands on Katahdin.

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