USSA Proposes World Cup At Killington

For the amount of open terrain, Killington is way too crowded in November. I think it is a terrible idea - at least for Killington's early season regulars.

I think this is awesome!! The Beast, most certainly, is back!!

Joshua, as you know, this will be on a self-contained pod. Even with limited early season terrain, the way Killington is setup, those who wish to ski can spread out and away from the crowds and race area. I think this is a tremendous opportunity for Killington. Plus, the revenue from the races will far outweigh any regular Turkey weekend skiing revenue.

Awesome idea in my book. I guess they don't have a problem with the two lift towers across the bottom pitch.

Regarding the effects to early season, I would think this actually will help. Once the race is over that is a lot of open acreage to spread crowds out vs one thin run down Snowdon.

I guess Sunday River will now be my T-day weekend place to go.

BenedictGomez said:

Doing it in November? Great, cant wait for all the, "teh east haz no snoh" comments after that.

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This is likely to be Killington's biggest marketing / image disaster ever.

ss20 said:

I've always wondered what a Chinese Downhill from K-1 to the base of Skyeship would look like. I'd pay money to see that.

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It's hella fun.

doublediamond said:

Superstar probably will be bumped up to #2 on the snowmaking list instead of filling out Snowdon. With Killington Opening mid-October to early-November since the Stairway went in, there won't be any problem except for the very warmest of winters to have . Don't forget that most of the middle/upper portions of Superstar are now lined with the SnowLogic ultra-low-E guns (with half the spacing as the old SR towers), and the bottom is getting several Fan towers this summer. The low-E snowmaking tech really has grown by leaps and bounds the past 3 years or so. Who knows what next winter will bring!

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If they have even slightly less than optimal temps, they will NEVER be able to produce enough snow with the low-e snowguns. They're going to have to use old style guns with a bunch of air compressors running full tilt.

Highway Star said:

This is likely to be Killington's biggest marketing / image disaster ever.

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I don't get it. You complain Killington doesn't host big time ski events. Now they get one potentially lined up (granted early season) and you start pissbooing it right away. Would you be happy if they held it in January or February on SS cutting out a big chunk of the middle of the resort during peak season for it? From a logistics of skiing public, this seems like a great time to do this. And don't doubt the new Low-E guns in marginal temps. Sunday River figured them out and rarely uses the older guns even when it gets marginal on the early season terrain now. I'm sure Killington has adapted and will be locked in now. In fact, I bet they will test out their plans this year for this and blow Superstar wide open very early this year as well. Just to prove to the Highway Stars out there they can and will pull this off.

Highway Star said:

This is likely to be Killington's biggest marketing / image disaster ever.

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And yet if they pull it off, I can already for see the overhead shot from the top of the lower Superstar Headwall, with both sides of the trail ringed with spectators heading down towards a packed K-1 base area with the U-bars in the image as Michaela Shriffrin rips down to win the slalom, likely on live national TV - K wins HUGE if they pull that off.

Your point about the weather variability is valid though Highwaystar - if next November was like November of 2011 where many resorts weren't even open on Thanksgiving weekend due to unseasonably warm temps, than a race cancellation would be tough to take.

I still feel though that the potential upside still outweighs the downside (and the fact that the 1st of the proposed races is on my birthday has nothing to do with my enthusiasm )

If they're unable to make enough snow for the race then chances are they or anyone else wouldn't even be open. It isn't difficult to calculate how many extra man hours and acres to get enough width and base on SS for this based on an average wet bulb percentile for that time period. If they feel the low E guns are not going to cut the mustard you can bet they'll have more rental compressors on hand for the K guns. They know their infrastructure and capabilities better than anyone in the armchair.

Like I said I couldn't give a hoot about the race. I'm just worried about how it will effect other snowmaking operations. The last year they had the DEW Tour at K they never blew any snow at all on Double Dipper or Devils Fiddle. Neither trail officially opened that year although they were poached. Cover was thin on a lot of other areas of the mountain too. Do you know how unsightly it was to ride the Canyon chair Jan-Mar & see a bare DD? Didn't really help their snowmaking reputation that year.

Not to mention it messed up Bear/Skye Peak for weeks because of trail closures.

What was the course at Mt Ellen? FIS->Rim Run->Lower FIS...it needs to be longer. They did the old timers race at Lincoln Peak down Snowball->Spring Fling.

Good for Killington! Just hope the November weather doesn't screw them too hard. I'd much rather see WC moguls on Outer Limits


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steamboat1 said:

Like I said I couldn't give a hoot about the race. I'm just worried about how it will effect other snowmaking operations. The last year they had the DEW Tour at K they never blew any snow at all on Double Dipper or Devils Fiddle. Neither trail officially opened that year although they were poached. Cover was thin on a lot of other areas of the mountain too. Do you know how unsightly it was to ride the Canyon chair Jan-Mar & see a bare DD? Didn't really help their snowmaking reputation that year.

Not to mention it messed up Bear/Skye Peak for weeks because of trail closures.

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My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.

The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.

drjeff said:

My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.

The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.

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+1 no comparison between getting adequate coverage down for a WC race compared with a Dew tour event.

It's also getting made on the single most used trail on the mountain as opposed to a minimally used half pipe.

I definitely get the limiting early terrain arguments and potential for bad marketing showing a brown hill with a strip of white. Hopefully mother nature helps out the marketing department.

drjeff said:

My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.

The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.

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I've said for years that they need to use superstar for more events. Duh. But certainly not in November. These people are lunatics.

Highway Star said:

I've said for years that they need to use superstar for more events. Duh. But certainly not in November. These people are lunatics.

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And you think Killington has a shot at a WC event any other time of the season?????

It'd be nearly impossible to host the race at any other time. Every other week is full. The only time they are on this side of the pond are:

Thanksgiving:
* Ladies' GS/SL in USA (usually Aspen)
* Men's DH/SG in Canada (Lake Louise)

1st weekend December:
* Ladies' DH/SG in Canada (Lake Louise)
* Men's DH and 2 of: GS/SG/Combined (Birds of Prey)

The week prior to Thanksgiving is shuffleing everything over here. Most of the week after is used as the same as the following weekend are technical (GS/SL) races for both men and women.

Every other week is booked to the end of the calendar. WC racing in New England would only ever be a ladies' event. You can bet my last penney the USSA won't move the Men anywhere ... Birds of Prey is one of the most popular courses for the ski racers. To have a WC race in New England mid-season would mean the Lake Louise and Birds of Prey races get moved as well, **AND** the canceling or reshuffling of many European races with at least one week off mid-season for transit.

Considering the firepower of Killington and Beaver Creek relative to most European venues, it's better to host them here Early on than making a European race bump theirs up.

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The Dew Tour is apples and oranges. There they made tons of snow in a place they don't make [relatively] a lot of snow for a one-off event mid-winter necessitating taking the resources from the rest of the mountain. A WC race will require **FAR** less snow and it will be on a popular trail.

And, don't forget, the racers love nearly ice-hard snow. Even man-made is too dry for them... they inject water and salt the race course to make it hard. This is a very good thing for May or June skiing on Superstar. At that part of the year, the snow is melting from both the top and the bottom. An ice-hard base will be far more durable to melting from below than a normal man-made base.

Also, don't forget, the limiting factor in early-season snowmaking is air. You'd be naïve to think the USSA won't require Killington to have boatloads of compressors on hand to make snow on all of Superstar using their most inefficient gun.

These ultra-low-E guns are killers. You're underestimating them. They were used extensively in early season snowmaking last year. The ground guns have a maximum flow of 75 gpm which would be at around 0F WB and colder. Generally guns don't get worse than 10-12x in efficiency at 28 WB (which is the upper operating temp of these guns. The Ratnik low-E guns can go up to 29.6F WB!) That means they'd be pumping out somewhere on the order of 7.5 gpm while only using 8 cfm of air. Guess what. You put two of those side-by-side and you get the output of the HKD SV10 or HKD Impulse, which are the "gold standard" now of early-season snowmaking. At that rate you could put them every 5 feet and you'd use less air and make far more snow than before.

This ain't your father's technology. Air-hogs are quickly going the way of the past.

Newpylong said:

If they're unable to make enough snow for the race then chances are they or anyone else wouldn't even be open. It isn't difficult to calculate how many extra man hours and acres to get enough width and base on SS for this based on an average wet bulb percentile for that time period. If they feel the low E guns are not going to cut the mustard you can bet they'll have more rental compressors on hand for the K guns. They know their infrastructure and capabilities better than anyone in the armchair.

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Well, put this to the BS test....

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

Now, without getting into the details of the low-e snowguns, which are FAR less effective than old style snowguns at marginal temps..........what has Killington's past performance been like? Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max. The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails. In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

Now what about this race? They are contractually commited to host it and if they can't pull it off, they stand to loose a pile of money. Hopefully they have insurance for this sort of thing. Lets compare senarios based on past winters - each of these happen about a third of the time:

Cold November: No problem, race happens, skiing for public likely on other trails off superstar chairs, plus K-1, NRT and Snowdon.

Average November: Race draws most snowmaking resouces for first half of November. Superstar might be open to public for first half of November. Snowmaking on K-1 / NRT starts once Superstar looks to be in good shape, public skiing only on NRT for Thanksgiving weekend (45 minute lift lines).

Warm, rainy November: Snowmaking focused entirely on Superstar, during small overnight windows of snowmaking, with several rain events melting snow. No public skiing on Thanksgiving weekend.

So, by my estimates they have a 2/3rd's chance of having either NO public skiing, or skiing on the NRT only for Thanksgiving - both of those are pretty bad senarios.

This is not even taking into account the chances of an ice storm, major rain storm, or 70F thaw the week of the event.

EPIC FAIL!

doublediamond said:

These ultra-low-E guns are killers. You're underestimating them. They were used extensively in early season snowmaking last year. The ground guns have a maximum flow of 75 gpm which would be at around 0F WB and colder. Generally guns don't get worse than 10-12x in efficiency at 28 WB (which is the upper operating temp of these guns. The Ratnik low-E guns can go up to 29.6F WB!) That means they'd be pumping out somewhere on the order of 7.5 gpm while only using 8 cfm of air. Guess what. You put two of those side-by-side and you get the output of the HKD SV10 or HKD Impulse, which are the "gold standard" now of early-season snowmaking. At that rate you could put them every 5 feet and you'd use less air and make far more snow than before.

This ain't your father's technology. Air-hogs are quickly going the way of the past.

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This is totally false. Low-e guns are completely ineffective in marginal temps.