Spruce Triple - Sunday River, ME

Jully · Oct 6, 2016

Bump.

Anyone see this article about ski lift accidents? Given the number of actual deaths that have occurred from chairlift malfunctions, I'd say the title is rather ridiculously inflammatory...

http://www.outsideonline.com/2069911/your-local-chairlift-could-kill-you

thetrailboss · Oct 6, 2016

Jully said:
Bump.

Anyone see this article about ski lift accidents? Given the number of actual deaths that have occurred from chairlift malfunctions, I'd say the title is rather ridiculously inflammatory...

http://www.outsideonline.com/2069911/your-local-chairlift-could-kill-you

Consider the source. A good magazine, but they are looking for clickbait. The fact is, though, that a lot of these lifts are getting old and some reaching the end of their useful lives. With a flat if not declining market, and only two lift manufacturers who control prices, it is hard to see lots of lift installs.

Jully · Oct 6, 2016

thetrailboss said:
Consider the source. A good magazine, but they are looking for clickbait. The fact is, though, that a lot of these lifts are getting old and some reaching the end of their useful lives. With a flat if not declining market, and only two lift manufacturers who control prices, it is hard to see lots of lift installs.

Additionally accident rates are still extremely low. There were hints of conspiracy theory throughout the article when they mentioned that there have been substantially more accidents reported in Europe. Definite clickbait.

SkiFanE · Oct 6, 2016

deadheadskier said:
That cascade / Monday morning intersection can kind of be a pinball alley as is, I really couldn't imagine a lift unloading there.[/QUOTE

In our house it's the cluster fuck corner. When kids are around its just "the cluster" lol. I've heard cluster fuck junction is the newer sibling created at Grand Rapids/Amex merge under chondola. Either is a nightmare - if you're gonna be injured at SR, 50% chance it's one of these spots.

Im the minority that think carpet loaders are a big waste of $. Maybe not for a weekday warrior (UHK) - but weekends it screws up more than it helps. I'd rather have other improvements with the $.

Jully · Oct 6, 2016

The Grand Rapids Amex merge is awful. Worse IMO coming from Amex as opposed to Grand Rapids.

Hawk · Mar 31, 2017

I hear your concern. It is similar to a lot of places as far as capital investment. I think it shows uncertainty in the future. Anyway I am not a huge fan of the snow they blew on the Spruce area. Before they blew that area people were lapping trails with the natural snow and it was really soft and good. The snow making actually made it worse. That is until we had bad weather and it got all iced up and additional soft snow and grooming was needed but that is new England I guess. Back earlier in the season when I visited my friends there, that was all we pretty much did. Traffic was non existent and we skied soft bumps. really good stuff.

machski · Mar 31, 2017

uphillklimber said:
Okay, I have some rumor news about the replacement of the Spruce lift. I was riding the lift with a couple officers of some condo associations on mountain. As such, Sunday River is a little more candid with them. Still this is almost fourth hand coming from me, so I am sure something is lost in translation. But here goes.

Apparently, an insurance payment is due to be made on April 1 for the Spruce Lift. This payment will not cover the full cost of replacement. CNL has sold out to Och-Ziff. Och-Ziff has indicated they have no interest in paying for any portion of the replacement chair. The entire balance of the chair replacement will need to be funded entirely by Boyne. (Again, all of this is about 4th hand from me, take it for what it is worth.

Personal observations:

American and Risky have been some of the nicest skiing of the season. They (finally) did blow snow up there a couple months ago and have been grooming it. The snow coverage over the base is much deeper than the rest of the mountain, simply because those trails do not get much use. We tend to ski them at least once a day, it being worth the walk (once daily) in our opinion. Really awesome conditions.

Sunday River recently had a flash sale, with additional discounts for buying a pass during that week, that many of us SR skiers took advantage of. We are all thinking this was a way for SR to generate a good deal of quick cash to fund the remaining amount for the Spruce lift. (Supposition only).

Many of us are concerned about SR skiing. Three times this season, the Barker quad, perhaps the most important and heavily used lift on mountain, has been down for extended periods (several days or more) for repairs. SR is not particularly known for their maintenance. They have recently lost two of their best lift mechanics, one of whom I know personally. Add to this that Och-Ziff has already displayed a hesitancy to invest in the mountain.... we are all concerned what will happen to our home mountain. We are hopeful, but aware......

Sorry, not even close to the situation. Spruce will be replaced this year, O-Z not a factor here. O-Z is not the owner yet, the transaction has not closed so that is part of any investment on their part's issue.

As for Barker, we are likely stuck with that for a while yet. The most recent event had a part that had to be replaced and it was an original Yan part. Since they have been out of business for two decades now, replacement parts for those components don't sit on shelves. They are fabricated on an as needed basis. Thus the extended downtime. I don't buy the notion that maintenance at SR is up to snuff. I believe it is, but things break. And unfortunately when Barker breaks, many of those parts are Yan parts requiring fabrication of a replacement.

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machski · Mar 31, 2017

Uphillklimber, crazy story. That said, the gas tank fuel pump is not a major unit that directly affects the skiing product. The ski business, especially in the east, is a very narrow margin business. I can totally see holding off replacing that pump until it fails, trying to milk every penny out of that.

When it comes to lifts, I believe they do a good job on maintenance. Mechanical stuff fails at odd times, I fly corporate jets and see it all the time in my planes I fly. Stuff breaks. A lot of that stuff we can defer and fly with inop because of system redundancy, and I know the mountain does all it can to keep lifts turning if they have adequate redundancy when components fail out. But some need to be replaced immediately before further operation. It stinks but is what it is. SR is not the only major resort in the east with these problems. I would love an entire fleet of new lifts, but that is just not practical (unless you're vail resorts).

There are some excellent CapEx projects in the works at SR (though no lifts beyond Spruce) but aside from Spruce, they will have to wait for the asset sale transfer to be complete. There is likely a courtship period as well with O-Z that will need to play out, but I remain hopeful that this will be a good partnership and SR will continue to improve.

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freeski · Mar 31, 2017

Not replacing the gas pump was a poor business decision. What did the pump cost in labor/travel once it failed. Also, the employees aware of the situation feel like they're working for idiots.

doublediamond · Apr 1, 2017

And also the labor costs associated with the 10-20 minute pumps. That's 10-20 minutes anyone with a vehicle could be doing other work.

What year was this? End-ASC era? Boyne?

nanjil · Apr 1, 2017

from your description not making/planning for prompt repairs does not seem to make normal financial sense. Then the rational must be some kind of 'alternate facts' book keeping

machski · Apr 1, 2017

Don't know what to say. Even if things didn't run smoothly with your examples, I still think it is a bit of a leap to then say they runs the lifts the same way. If they ever did, I would hope the events of the past decade at a sister resort have changed that. With that said, mechanical parts break. You cannot change them all out ahead of time, some will give out well in advance of expected time intervals. The mountain infrastructure is not as young as it once was, it is something the mountain and we as guests will have to deal with. I know MGMT does not think Locke is a good backup for Barker, it is better than nothing. If Barker continues to act up often over the next few seasons, I would think a replacement will be moved up in priority.

As for other areas having similar tails as yours, I'm sure it happens in slightly different scenarios more than many of us realize. The ski business has very expensive infrastructure assets installed or on hill and it is a very slim margin business. And with season pass pricing pressures now heating up in the Northeast to lower prices, this scenario may be on the uptick playlist across NE.

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machski · Apr 1, 2017

uphillklimber said:
As far as making the leap from the two stories I shared with you to lift maintenance, I knew one of the lift mechanics pretty well. He did a good job, but also expressed some frustration over how they are told to stretch out the equipment. From the bean counters point of view, you milk everything out that you can out of every part. From the mechanics point of view, you consider changing it when it (well, not when it loses its shine), when things start to get near the edge of accepted tolerances. Bean counters say, when it reaches the edge of tolerance, not near....

Tough situation.....

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machski · Apr 1, 2017

machski said:
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Happens in most industries with mechanical equipment. Trust me, I see it all the time in mine. A tire probably has 10 more good landings in it. Don't change it now, ride it out til it is fully used up treadwise. Stuff isn't cheap to replace, that's for sure.

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doublediamond · Apr 1, 2017

If your story is Boyne-era, it probably has to due with the complicated relationship of CNL owning the assets and Boyne owning an operating lease. Boyne probably would be stuck with the bill replacing something not broken, while if it was broken CNL would pick up the tab.

bigbob · Apr 2, 2017

uphillklimber said:
I tend to agree with you Machski. It is hard to know when a cog will just fail.I do have to say this about the mountain. I greatly respect that they went all over the mountain, checking every lift and tower, and bolting some down to when anything was found to be questionable. I mean after what happened at the Loaf over the last half dozen years, and what happened in the middle of Summer, I felt they were very proactive going around and securing everything found wanting and changing out the Locke upper station.

I don't mean to sound like a River hater, overall, I am very satisfied with them. Could they do things better? Sure. Everyone has a different expectation of what that level should be, mixing in available cash and resources to arrive there. I'd just like to see a higher level of maintenance. But I have not put myself into position to make those decisions.

As far as making the leap from the two stories I shared with you to lift maintenance, I knew one of the lift mechanics pretty well. He did a good job, but also expressed some frustration over how they are told to stretch out the equipment. From the bean counters point of view, you milk everything out that you can out of every part. From the mechanics point of view, you consider changing it when it (well, not when it loses its shine), when things start to get near the edge of accepted tolerances. Bean counters say, when it reaches the edge of tolerance, not near....

Tough situation.....

I would tend to believe this was ordered by the Maine Tramway board rather than being done by the goodness of their heart. Squaw had to do this to their one lift also. I was also impressed seeing I done however.

Newpylong · Apr 2, 2017

At least in New Hampshire the tramway board now requires any footings (towers, terminals, bullwheels, etc) that are anchored on ledge to A) show from the as-built what type of pins and grout were used and B) be certified by an aerial tramway engineer that they are safe to operate. It is possible SR was a combination as the Maine board likely requires similar and the top terminal of Locke could not be vouched for.

benski · Apr 2, 2017

Newpylong said:
At least in New Hampshire the tramway board now requires any footings (towers, terminals, bullwheels, etc) that are anchored on ledge to A) show from the as-built what type of pins and grout were used and B) be certified by an aerial tramway engineer that they are safe to operate. It is possible SR was a combination as the Maine board likely requires similar and the top terminal of Locke could not be vouched for.

Does Maine even have a tramway board and if so do they do anything? They don't seem very effective.

Hawk · Apr 3, 2017

From what I have seen it looks like the rebar was the failure point as it decayed and then pulled out from the grout. The pics show bare rebar with no sign of any grout. this was confirmed by a friend that hiked up there to see the mess. If they used epoxy coated rebar this probably would not have happened. But Hind site is 20/20. I am sure they thought when they built that lift that it would never failed.

machski · Apr 18, 2017

Just in case anyone was doubting:

Vi

The 2016/17 season may be winding down as we make our way to our annual last day on May 1, but we’re getting ready to kick off 2017/18 by breaking ground on the new Spruce Peak Triple chairlift.

We’re thrilled to announce that construction on the new lift will begin next month, thanks to the support of our parent company, Boyne Resorts, and our new financial partner, Och-Ziff Capital Management Group.

As we shared earlier, the new lift will be a $2.1 million dollar, fixed-grip triple chairlift built in the same location as the original lift, which will make the ride faster and more comfortable. As an ode to the original, we intend to keep the name “Spruce Peak Triple.”*Our estimated construction timeline is six months, which coincides nicely with our early-season operating plan.

We sincerely appreciate your patience this winter and look forward to celebrating this new addition with you next season. In the meantime, you can follow construction progress on our*First Chair blog.

Thanks for being a passholder.

Sincerely,

Dana Bullen
Resort President & General Manager

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