Saddleback Mountain Cooperative - Information Thread & Survey - Page 13

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  1. #121
    Newpylong's Avatar
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    Dec 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    2 grand for 1 adult and 1 teen/kid pass, at Saddleback. Oh you get a free drink at a restaurant.

    I wish all of you luck but you aren't going to succeed with that pricing.
    With a mindset that this is competing with typical yearly season passes, then no it isn't a good deal. But it isn't - this is for people with a stake in the mountain to make an investment, the return is the mountain continues to operate. Better than any season's pass.

    However If I were an investor or potential customer what I would be wary of is the front and center mention of expansion plans. I think they are going to find any and all capital that is acquired either via donation, membership fees, or operating revenue is going to need to go back into operational costs and capital investment to existing infrastructure. Operating a ski area is highly costly and ebbs and flows with the weather. I find it surprising that they mention expansion at all rather than presenting the business/development plan as operating the (existing) ski area in a sustainable way.
    Last edited by Newpylong; Nov 1, 2016 at 6:15 AM.

  2. #122

  3. #123

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    First off, my hat is off to these guys for trying to bring back SB in some shape or form. After going through the website and the draft membership form, I do have a couple of questions. How much are the owners of SMCR putting into the pot? Is the initial 4 million part of the 25 million that SMF is going to try to raise? When will SMCR transfer the ownership of the ski area and assets to the SMF? What, if any, will SMF pay SMCR for the ski area? What will trigger that transfer and what guarantee is in place to make sure that happens? Their website talks about "Shares" in SMCR, however, the draft form is for a membership in "Saddleback Mountain" with non binding, advisory only voting power. Is there still an option to buy actual shares in SMCR? Before I make any type of donation to this organization, I would want to know their capabilities in managing this transaction, operating a resort and making the correct decisions. Understanding that SMCR is not going to publish their business model, it might be helpful to some people if they provided a little more insight into how the relationship works between them and the SMF. Where in the big picture is SMCR's revenue stream coming from? Management fees, ticket sales, development oversight fees? Ultimately, after taking over ownership of the ski area, is SMF's only source of income the royalties generated by real estate sales?

    As far as the draft membership form - proofread, the donation levels listed in the total section and description section are different. Might be good to add who to make the checks out to for the membership. Needs to be clearer about what you are becoming a member to. Given the amount that some people maybe donating, it might be a good idea to include some legal backup to this document.

  4. #124
    MEtoVTSkier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newpylong View Post
    With a mindset that this is competing with typical yearly season passes, then no it isn't a good deal. But it isn't - this is for people with a stake in the mountain to make an investment, the return is the mountain continues to operate. Better than any season's pass.

    However If I were an investor or potential customer what I would be wary of is the front and center mention of expansion plans. I think they are going to find any and all capital that is acquired either via donation, membership fees, or operating revenue is going to need to go back into operational costs and capital investment to existing infrastructure. Operating a ski area is highly costly and ebbs and flows with the weather. I find it surprising that they mention expansion at all rather than presenting the business/development plan as operating the (existing) ski area in a sustainable way.
    I think it's a little pricey for the average middle-class family, but it's not totally outrageous either. I think it'd be an easier sell if the voting rights were more along the lines of MRG's

    Completely agree on the expansion being front and center. It's the first thing that turned me off on it. Especially on the Baselodge... wasn't that just re-done for many millions?

    I think people really want to hear, and rally around the Rangley being replaced. I think that if they can get it installed for the 500k downpayment, then that should be what the focus is on. I'm also hoping that while they are talking fixed-grip, that they are giving serious consideration to it being carpet-fed and run at the 600fpm rate (ala Spillway). It will quiet some that are still hoping for high-speed detachable.

    At the end of the day, at least SOMETHING is happening with Saddleback's situation.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by mbedle View Post
    First off, my hat is off to these guys for trying to bring back SB in some shape or form. After going through the website and the draft membership form, I do have a couple of questions. How much are the owners of SMCR putting into the pot? Is the initial 4 million part of the 25 million that SMF is going to try to raise? When will SMCR transfer the ownership of the ski area and assets to the SMF? What, if any, will SMF pay SMCR for the ski area? What will trigger that transfer and what guarantee is in place to make sure that happens? Their website talks about "Shares" in SMCR, however, the draft form is for a membership in "Saddleback Mountain" with non binding, advisory only voting power. Is there still an option to buy actual shares in SMCR? Before I make any type of donation to this organization, I would want to know their capabilities in managing this transaction, operating a resort and making the correct decisions. Understanding that SMCR is not going to publish their business model, it might be helpful to some people if they provided a little more insight into how the relationship works between them and the SMF. Where in the big picture is SMCR's revenue stream coming from? Management fees, ticket sales, development oversight fees? Ultimately, after taking over ownership of the ski area, is SMF's only source of income the royalties generated by real estate sales?

    As far as the draft membership form - proofread, the donation levels listed in the total section and description section are different. Might be good to add who to make the checks out to for the membership. Needs to be clearer about what you are becoming a member to. Given the amount that some people maybe donating, it might be a good idea to include some legal backup to this document.
    This. Hats off to Peter and everyone for getting something done though. It was no small task!

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by mbedle View Post
    First off, my hat is off to these guys for trying to bring back SB in some shape or form. After going through the website and the draft membership form, I do have a couple of questions. How much are the owners of SMCR putting into the pot? Is the initial 4 million part of the 25 million that SMF is going to try to raise? When will SMCR transfer the ownership of the ski area and assets to the SMF? What, if any, will SMF pay SMCR for the ski area? What will trigger that transfer and what guarantee is in place to make sure that happens? Their website talks about "Shares" in SMCR, however, the draft form is for a membership in "Saddleback Mountain" with non binding, advisory only voting power. Is there still an option to buy actual shares in SMCR? Before I make any type of donation to this organization, I would want to know their capabilities in managing this transaction, operating a resort and making the correct decisions. Understanding that SMCR is not going to publish their business model, it might be helpful to some people if they provided a little more insight into how the relationship works between them and the SMF. Where in the big picture is SMCR's revenue stream coming from? Management fees, ticket sales, development oversight fees? Ultimately, after taking over ownership of the ski area, is SMF's only source of income the royalties generated by real estate sales?

    As far as the draft membership form - proofread, the donation levels listed in the total section and description section are different. Might be good to add who to make the checks out to for the membership. Needs to be clearer about what you are becoming a member to. Given the amount that some people maybe donating, it might be a good idea to include some legal backup to this document.
    All great questions...I can speak to the relationship between SMCR and SMF, which clears up a few of the Q's. The SMF, when approved, will sit atop the organization. They will lease the land to SMCR (don't know for what, ask the tax attorney). As I understand it, there will essentially be 3 ways to invest...The membership as illustrated for $500-$25,000, the shares for > $25,000, and Tax Deductible Donations under the 501c3 foundation...That's not yet available since approval is pending. SMCR revenue stream will come from land royalties, continued sale of shares/memberships, and most importantly grants and tax credits from the SMF...The SMF is the key to the model. The $4mil raise is part of the $25mil campaign. The projected numbers support the expansion. Of course land sales will dictate how quickly the development moves along..Ticket prices and season's passes figures are still being hashed out.

    The biggest takeaway from talking with the key stakeholders is even in it's current state, the model wasn't all that broken. Staying mostly debt-free, especially under this model is critical. With no debt (and $2mil in working capital) they should be able to make money from the jump, with year 1 being the exception...It's too late in the game to make money this year but it still may be worthwhile to open to get the community behind the initiative...Rangeley lost almost $20mil in revenue last year with Saddleback closed.

  7. #127
    That makes more sense, thank you for clarifying! So full shares are also available it sounds like? Just for a substantially larger price than the mrg share, but this isn't the mrg model obviously.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by MEtoVTSkier View Post
    So there will be visual status symbols based on apparel - how will the Red Tiger Hat guy feel next to the Dark Wizard Ski Jacket guy?
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    2016-2017 target - 50

    If you take what the mountain gives you, you will always have fun!

  9. #129
    salsgang's Avatar
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    Jan 2007
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    All good feedback and discussion. Posting of the preliminary membership form all intended to get the juices flowing and discussion going. Form is undergoing final review and edit as I understand it. Looking at the foundation website (http://www.skisaddlebackme.com/) it says 'under construction' so more news soon I trust.

    There is a public meeting at Rangeley High School on Weds Nov 2 at 5:30pm. Presentation followed by Q&A.


  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by dlague View Post
    So there will be visual status symbols based on apparel - how will the Red Tiger Hat guy feel next to the Dark Wizard Ski Jacket guy?
    Hopefully Red Tiger Hat guy derives his self-confidence from sources other than his new Red Tiger Hat as well.

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