The NEW Magic Mountain

AdironRider · Dec 22, 2021

It is going to take Magic over four years to install a lift. Four.

If this was the old owner people would be lining up with pitchforks, but internet friends own it now.

drjeff · Dec 22, 2021

The truth is, based on their pass sales and attendance levels the past few seasons, and not just during ski season but at year round events that often involve the BLT, I am wondering if short of a few folks on places like AZ and a few other ski forums as well as Magic's social media feeds from time to time, if there are really that many people that upset with the trials and tribulations that have been synonamous with the Black since from not too long after it arrived on site from Stratton?

In general, most people seem to think that Magic is headed in the right direction, and have chosen to continue their support via their wallets through the set backs around the Black, and heck even the Green as it neared it's completion.

Wishing nothing but the best to Geoff and his entire crew and getting Magic to the place they have for it in their vision of it!

icecoast1 · Dec 22, 2021

AdironRider said:
It is going to take Magic over four years to install a lift. Four.

If this was the old owner people would be lining up with pitchforks, but internet friends own it now.

I guess that's the difference between taking a more open and honest approach to communication vs the Vail way of doing things.

Other than buying a brand new lift and having it installed by the manufacturer, what more could they have done?

ThatGuy · Dec 22, 2021

There’s probably three weekends a year where Black is actually needed anyway. Red being ready for summit access is more important right now and that seems to be on track for completion.

slatham · Dec 22, 2021

AdironRider said:
It is going to take Magic over four years to install a lift. Four.

If this was the old owner people would be lining up with pitchforks, but internet friends own it now.

Can't argue with your underlying point, but it hasn't been 4 years. They received Act 250 Permit in Jan of 2019.

AdironRider · Dec 22, 2021

They purchased the lift in May of 2018. By the time it spins it will be well over 4 years. Taking almost a year just to get the permit does not help the proper management argument, notably to replace a lift that already exists already. The overwhelming majority of ACT 250 permits are issued in under 60 days.

Hugh's point about communication is not wrong either. It is basically straight up lying to say they are going to use a crane to install the black lift mid winter. That isn't truthful and upfront communication, basically the opposite actually.

Magic is very lucky to have the following they do. Not many ski areas can get away with this kind of stuff and not be panned widely, or worse, NELSAP.

drjeff · Dec 22, 2021

I wonder if one of the tracked vehicle all terrain, all season cranes like are used by power companies to access power delivery lines, even in remote mountain locations year round, may end up being part of the answer for the Black and potential completion this season? Not sure if those types of vehicles have the lifting capacity that would be needed for that tower on the Black. But I wouldn't doubt that they could access the location based on some of the locations they can get to for power delivery line work.

Heck, there's a company just off of Route 100 about an hour South of Magic in Jacksonville, Riggs-Distler, that has multiple vehicles of that type that I see every time I drive by it on my way to/from Mount Snow.

icecoast1 · Dec 22, 2021

AdironRider said:
The overwhelming majority of ACT 250 permits are issued in under 60 days.

Depends on the complexity of the project. If they had just used the same lift line as old black and didn't have to cut trees to extend it up the hill, then yes it probably would have gone quicker

Newpylong · Dec 22, 2021

I do notice it's the people who don't even ski there that are crying the most foul. For those that ski there, well, they know the score.

As for the ACT 250 point, this is not entirely true. This was not a direct replacement as the lift is slightly a new alignment requiring a new line for the top 1/3. You know what that means? Full environmental review. The Pohlig they replaced probably is so old you couldn't even amend an existing permit which is usually done for more recent installs.

As for the rest, sure you could argue the optimism could have been toned down. Sure you could argue it should have been put in quicker. However, hindsight is 20/20 and as someone who HAS been been involved in multiple lift installs, when you aren't dealing with Poma, Dopp or Skytrac, this sh*t happens. There are exactly 3 contractors who can do this work in the Eastern US. One I wouldn't use, and neither would Magic. The other is more southern, and that leaves PMS. Tim has a lot of clients. All of those clients pay the bills. Some of those clients need work done a lot more urgently than a secondary summit lift. You can be disappointed but you have to roll with the punches or be big enough to have your own staff to do the Civil Engineering and the install.

cdskier · Dec 22, 2021

On the ACT 250 front, typically you'd start that process when you first start planning to replace a lift. This was a unique situation because the lift became available to purchase from a neighbor and wasn't something they were planning to do right at that point originally. So that screws up your timing of the permitting process right there. Unless someone had a crystal ball to know earlier that they'd end up buying that used lift, it would have been difficult to start that process much earlier.

AdironRider · Dec 22, 2021

Newpylong said:
I do notice it's the people who don't even ski there that are crying the most foul. For those that ski there, well, they know the score.

As for the ACT 250 point, this is not entirely true. This was not a direct replacement as the lift is slightly a new alignment requiring a new line for the top 1/3. You know what that means? Full environmental review. The Pohlig they replaced probably is so old you couldn't even amend an existing permit which is usually done for more recent installs.

As for the rest, sure you could argue the optimism could have been toned down. Sure you could argue it should have been put in quicker. However, hindsight is 20/20 and as someone who HAS been been involved in multiple lift installs, when you aren't dealing with Poma, Dopp or Skytrac, this sh*t happens. There are exactly 3 contractors who can do this work in the Eastern US. One I wouldn't use, and neither would Magic. The other is more southern, and that leaves PMS. Tim has a lot of clients. All of those clients pay the bills. Some of those clients need work done a lot more urgently than a secondary summit lift. You can be disappointed but you have to roll with the punches or be big enough to have your own staff to do the Civil Engineering and the install.

Please point out another lift install that took four years just to install after purchase, because that is not common at all. Magic has directly marketed the black quad as not a secondary lift but the primary by the way.

And even still, fine, I can buy the they aren't a major player argument, but I think this whole "they are the best at communication" thing is laughable ultimately. They've been talking about this for years and at some point it leads one to think they are just winging it. Magic has faithful now but the faithful turned on the last owner after a few instances just like this.

machski · Dec 22, 2021

icecoast1 said:
I guess that's the difference between taking a more open and honest approach to communication vs the Vail way of doing things.

Other than buying a brand new lift and having it installed by the manufacturer, what more could they have done?

Gone with the OEM to do the install of the used lift. But that was likely far pricier than using Pfister. But you wind up dealing with the starts and stops when engineering issues come up (after all, you are taking a lift designed for one line at one mountain and trying to spatula it into a totally different terrain line). The up front outlay of capital to have L-P do the re-engineering and install was likely a bit more than Magic could handle when the opportunity to buy Snowbowl popped up. In the end, the total outlay may have been less to go the L-P route, but thia path they are on allows a more metered outlay of capital. Assuming it doesn't damage the brand, this should work for them in the end.

urungus · Dec 22, 2021

AdironRider said:
It is going to take Magic over four years to install a lift. Four.

If this was the old owner people would be lining up with pitchforks, but internet friends own it now.

LOL, previous owner started work on the Green Chair in 2003 and it still wasn’t completed 13 years later in November 2016 when current ownership took over. New owners got Green up and running by January 2019, two years later. Ridiculous to complain about current ownership vs. the old.

skimagic · Dec 22, 2021

AdironRider said:
Please point out another lift install that took four years just to install after purchase, because that is not common at all. Magic has directly marketed the black quad as not a secondary lift but the primary by the way.

Montana Snowbowl took five years to install a used double chair.

Although the black chair was mentioned as eventually being the main lift up , it doesn't really matter because the red has always been the main lift to the top. Nothing has has changed. I doubt more than a handful of season pass holders are upset about the delay. And if so, they can always go EPIC next season.

Newpylong · Dec 22, 2021

machski said:
Gone with the OEM to do the install of the used lift. But that was likely far pricier than using Pfister. But you wind up dealing with the starts and stops when engineering issues come up (after all, you are taking a lift designed for one line at one mountain and trying to spatula it into a totally different terrain line). The up front outlay of capital to have L-P do the re-engineering and install was likely a bit more than Magic could handle when the opportunity to buy Snowbowl popped up. In the end, the total outlay may have been less to go the L-P route, but thia path they are on allows a more metered outlay of capital. Assuming it doesn't damage the brand, this should work for them in the end.

That is assuming they would want anything to do with it. Poma has trended to only touch a reinstall if it's packaged with a new install.

machski · Dec 22, 2021

Newpylong said:
That is assuming they would want anything to do with it. Poma has trended to only touch a reinstall if it's packaged with a new install.

Good point, all the reinstalls I can think of they have done have been within an ownership group upgrading an existing lift and then reinstalling the used elsewhere within their portfolio.

ne_skier · Dec 22, 2021

Slightly off topic but I heard that Magic had been planning on replacing Red in 2 years until they got word of necessary repairs this summer. Wonder what they would have put in.

ss20 · Dec 22, 2021

urungus said:
LOL, previous owner started work on the Green Chair in 2003 and it still wasn’t completed 13 years later in November 2016 when current ownership took over. New owners got Green up and running by January 2019, two years later.

This argument has come up before. Green they worked on quietly and when it was ready, they gave two weeks notice. Black has been "just around the corner" for a looooong time. If they just installed it at their own pace and didn't promise any completion dates similar to green I'd be fine. I'm fully in the boat with @AdironRider that Magic has gotten a few too many passes on Black... not so much that it's taken this long, but that there's been a ton of missed deadlines that had been communicated to the public.

ss20 · Dec 22, 2021

ne_skier said:
Slightly off topic but I heard that Magic had been planning on replacing Red in 2 years until they got word of necessary repairs this summer. Wonder what they would have put in.

Highly doubt that. I doubt they ever fully replace red and do something similar to the MRG single major overhaul in the mid 00s. Too iconic a lift.

ne_skier · Dec 22, 2021

ss20 said:
Highly doubt that. I doubt they ever fully replace red and do something similar to the MRG single major overhaul in the mid 00s. Too iconic a lift.

I was surprised when I saw that too, I figured there would be a riot if that happened. I’d happily contribute $ to a MRG-style rehab if the time came.
Here’s where I saw it: https://www.skijournal.com/magic-mountain-vermont-indy-pass/

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