The NEW Magic Mountain

Newpylong · Nov 28, 2022

You certainly cannot blame Pjister for the engineering issue. We don't know the whole story and like most non "big two" installs it was Stevens Engineering who stamped it.

That said, I've mentioned several times that Magic is not his only customer. When you're essentially the only outfit in the East that does work on everyone's old janky lifts you're going to be spread mighty thin. Tim jumps on emergencies and issues that prevent people from opening first. If he had zero other customers that lift would have been spinning already if not last season. But thems the breaks.

NYDB · Nov 28, 2022

I wonder if the engineering firm had some professional liability from that miscalc. Maybe magic got to recoup some costs from their e&o insurance.

AdironRider · Nov 28, 2022

Newpylong said:
You certainly cannot blame Pjister for the engineering issue. We don't know the whole story and like most non "big two" installs it was Stevens Engineering who stamped it.

That said, I've mentioned several times that Magic is not his only customer. When you're essentially the only outfit in the East that does work on everyone's old janky lifts you're going to be spread mighty thin. Tim jumps on emergencies and issues that prevent people from opening first. If he had zero other customers that lift would have been spinning already if not last season. But thems the breaks.

That excuse sailed a long time ago. This problem (aka a used lift taking over 5 years to install) does not exist elsewhere and is 100% on Magic at this point, not the subcontractor who is just following orders and probably being ignored when proposing solutions. Which brings me to my next point....

Frankly, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Magic is living hand to mouth if you ask me. These "investors" are really you guys who keep buying the marketing fluff and excusing away blatant mismanagement. You see it elsewhere, like their welching on discounts if it snows the day of as just one example. Businesses with a solid cash footing don't do shit like that. You know who won't show up immediately when called, critical subcontractors who aren't get paid timely or are unsure if the money is there.

Not spending money you don't have is good business, but not when you make boneheaded decisions like buying a used lift you can't afford in the first place.

urungus · Nov 28, 2022

AdironRider said:
Frankly, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Magic is living hand to mouth if you ask me. These "investors" are really you guys who keep buying the marketing fluff and excusing away blatant mismanagement. You see it elsewhere, like their welching on discounts if it snows the day of as just one example. Businesses with a solid cash footing don't do shit like that. You know who won't show up immediately when called, critical subcontractors who aren't get paid timely or are unsure if the money is there.

Not spending money you don't have is good business, but not when you make boneheaded decisions like buying a used lift you can't afford in the first place.

Do you have any actual evidence that Magic is having financial problems ? Other than not liking their clearly published powder day policy ? Don’t recall hearing about any lawsuits from unpaid creditors. And they have been limiting the number of passes and tickets they sell, strange thing to do if they are struggling finically…

ThatGuy · Nov 28, 2022

Playing Devils Advocate here but Vail limits their ticket sales as well. If you set the limit above whats reasonably expected is that truly a limit or a marketing gimmick?

Newpylong · Nov 28, 2022

AdironRider said:
That excuse sailed a long time ago. This problem (aka a used lift taking over 5 years to install) does not exist elsewhere and is 100% on Magic at this point, not the subcontractor who is just following orders and probably being ignored when proposing solutions. Which brings me to my next point....

Frankly, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Magic is living hand to mouth if you ask me. These "investors" are really you guys who keep buying the marketing fluff and excusing away blatant mismanagement. You see it elsewhere, like their welching on discounts if it snows the day of as just one example. Businesses with a solid cash footing don't do shit like that. You know who won't show up immediately when called, critical subcontractors who aren't get paid timely or are unsure if the money is there.

Not spending money you don't have is good business, but not when you make boneheaded decisions like buying a used lift you can't afford in the first place.

Not sure I typed an excuse. I made a statement that if the contractor was not essentially the sole vendor in New England for this type of work the schedule likely would have pulled in a season. I've worked with Tim on many occasions and know full well how he works and what his typical workload looks like. I know where he's been when not at Magic.

Beyond that point, of course it's all on Magic one way or another.

However you're making some huge assumptions in the remainder of your post. If you think passholders or day traffic is footing the bill for these hugely capitally intensive projects then you have no idea what the books look like of a typical ski area. Not something I can fault someone on though. That said, I do, and passes and day tickets / other operational revenue are keeping the lights on, paying insurance, paying for electricity and fuel, and floating payroll. Someone else believes in what is going and is footing the bill for these projects and your Magic Hat #9 at the Black Line is not it. So, the associated finger pointing of who or who isn't falling for marketing fluff is kinda irrelevant and uncalled for.

AdironRider · Nov 28, 2022

urungus said:
Do you have any actual evidence that Magic is having financial problems ? Other than not liking their clearly published powder day policy ? Don’t recall hearing about any lawsuits from unpaid creditors. And they have been limiting the number of passes and tickets they sell, strange thing to do if they are struggling finically…

Nothing other than their actions.

And FYI "limiting" day ticket sales is not actually a limit on the number of sold, it is a technique to get you to pre-buy and then allow a mountain to cut costs by staffing to reserved business levels. AKA, we only have 1000 tickets on the books today, so we won't staff for 2000 people possibly showing up. Ever notice not a single mountain actually posts the number of tickets they are "limiting" sales to. That's why.

AdironRider · Nov 28, 2022

Newpylong said:
Not sure I typed an excuse. I made a statement that if the contractor was not essentially the sole vendor in New England for this type of work the schedule likely would have pulled in a season. I've worked with Tim on many occasions and know full well how he works and what his typical workload looks like. I know where he's been when not at Magic.

Beyond that point, of course it's all on Magic one way or another.

However you're making some huge assumptions in the remainder of your post. If you think passholders or day traffic is footing the bill for these hugely capitally intensive projects then you have no idea what the books look like of a typical ski area. Not something I can fault someone on though. That said, I do, and passes and day tickets / other operational revenue are keeping the lights on, paying insurance, paying for electricity and fuel, and floating payroll. Someone else is footing the bill for these projects and your Magic Hat #9 at the Black Line is not it. So, the associated finger pointing of who or who isn't falling for marketing fluff is off base and uncalled for.

Get outta here that capital projects aren't funded by customers. There literally is not a business on earth that isn't reliant on capital projects being funded by usage.

Otherwise it is not a business. Investors might allow you to spend more money up front, but they are expecting to be paid back. And frankly, if Magic has investors that deep, they wouldn't be taking going on 5+ years to install a crappy used ski lift.

If anything the black ordeal proves they don't really have the resources you say they do, because if they did, the project would be complete by now.

Newpylong · Nov 28, 2022

Sounds like you got it all figured out then.

jimmywilson69 · Nov 28, 2022

AdironRider said:
If anything the black ordeal proves they don't really have the resources you say they do, because if they did, the project would be complete by now.

I mean if there were multiple lift contractors that did this work, sure. Based on several different people there aren't. There is one, so I'm not sure if Magic had money to wave around they could "lure" Pfister to the site to finish the job.

I also don't disagree with a lot yours, and others "negative" opinions or perceptions. Again if they get both lifts operational and all of the other things they've resurected this will all be an afterthought.

ThatGuy · Nov 28, 2022

Everyone should be able to agree it was a blunder to keep stating completion dates for Black. Just get it done like Green was. Regardless, open is better than NELSAP’ed in my eyes.

ss20 · Nov 28, 2022

ThatGuy said:
Everyone should be able to agree it was a blunder to keep stating completion dates for Black. Just get it done like Green was. Regardless, open is better than NELSAP’ed in my eyes.

Yes 1000%. That's my biggest issue in this whole saga. Magic would be at no fault if they hadn't advertised the completion of the lift the last 4 seasons. But the completion of Black and having a 2nd summit lift for reliability has been falsely advertised for years now as a selling point.

thetrailboss · Nov 28, 2022

ThatGuy said:
Everyone should be able to agree it was a blunder to keep stating completion dates for Black. Just get it done like Green was. Regardless, open is better than NELSAP’ed in my eyes.

Agreed that it is best to see it open, but pointing to the Green Chair is not a great argument because that took YEARS and multiple owners to build. If you are saying that this regime got it done, then sure, there is some credence there.

Bottom line is that this is a very tough business. As the old saying goes, "you make a small fortune in the ski business by investing a large one." It would have been very easy to get in way over their heads financially and be NELSAPed. But trying to keep it floating and doing this ambitious project is obviously straining for a single ski area with limited resources.

cdskier · Nov 28, 2022

AdironRider said:
This problem (aka a used lift taking over 5 years to install) does not exist elsewhere and is 100% on Magic at this point, not the subcontractor who is just following orders and probably being ignored when proposing solutions.

Can you cite another lift that while being relocated had someone make a rather substantial mistake in the engineering design and also happened to have a global pandemic in the middle that significantly disrupted global supply chains? This problem does not exist elsewhere because it is pretty unique and has simply not occurred elsewhere. So we have no idea how any one else would have handled it. I'm not sure that any amount of money thrown at it would have allowed you to get the new parts fabricated any faster. And based on other comments about there being essentially only 1 company around that does this sort of work (once it is engineered properly), again, not sure any amount of money thrown at it would have allowed it to be completed faster.

Can Magic be faulted for announcing dates that were not even close to being met? Absolutely 100%. Can they be faulted for not just planning to replace the haul rope right off the bat as part of the reinstall? Possibly...but hard to say without knowing more details about haul rope life expectancy and the condition of it when the lift was sold to them. But can they be faulted for the engineer screwing up? Or massive supply chain issues causing delays? I say no to both of those...

I've made this point before, but I see people criticizing things they chose to do, but never in those criticisms do I see any realistic ideas on what viable alternatives there were that could have allowed this to be completed quicker. As someone else recently said, once these projects are finally completed, Magic will be in a much better position than they've possibly ever been. Sure better than them going NELSAP... And I say all this from a position that I consider as a relatively neutral outsider. I have no stake in Magic's success and have never even skied there. I'm just bothered by some of the unrealistic criticisms and expectations some people have. Substantial delays in projects even undertaken by large companies with tons of cash to throw at them happen all the time. They just aren't usually as publicly visible as this one.

SkiNewEngland.net · Nov 28, 2022

cdskier said:
Can you cite another lift that while being relocated had someone make a rather substantial mistake in the engineering design and also happened to have a global pandemic in the middle that significantly disrupted global supply chains? This problem does not exist elsewhere because it is pretty unique and has simply not occurred elsewhere.

New Bousquet Lift Opens; New Magic Lift Delayed Again

cdskier · Nov 28, 2022

SkiNewEngland.net said:
New Bousquet Lift Opens; New Magic Lift Delayed Again

Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't sound like the Bousquet issue required any design and fabrication of new parts (only realigning several towers is what I see mentioned in several articles)...so not quite an apples to apples comparison.

AdironRider · Nov 28, 2022

Come up with all the excuses you want, but this wasn’t the first used lift installation in the world, and it won’t be the last. All of them have hurdles to overcome, yet only Magic has taken this long. Implying Magic is in some unique scenario never before seen is pure hogwash.

tnt1234 · Nov 29, 2022

Can someone give us the cliff notes on the Black install and the engineering mistakes?

doublediamond · Nov 29, 2022

From what I gather…

Magic installed used Snow Bowl Quad from Stratton. The original lift was shorter with a mellower lift line. Magic tried to shoehorn in the lift base to top of Red. How they got the rope long enough is up for question.

Problem 1 — Magic knew the rope was old and wouldn’t be certified. They installed it anyways rather than buying a new rope.

Problem 2 — There was some error in survey/construction/engineering and the rope would fall off the downhill sheaves on a couple towers once it was loaded with chairs.

Problem 3 — This is an old lift with odd components. No one had combo assemblies to sell to Magic. Magic had to custom make their own.

We’re now 5 years into a 1 year job…

tnt1234 · Nov 29, 2022

doublediamond said:
From what I gather…

Magic installed used Snow Bowl Quad from Stratton. The original lift was shorter with a mellower lift line. Magic tried to shoehorn in the lift base to top of Red. How they got the rope long enough is up for question.

Problem 1 — Magic knew the rope was old and wouldn’t be certified. They installed it anyways rather than buying a new rope.

Problem 2 — There was some error in survey/construction/engineering and the rope would fall off the downhill sheaves on a couple towers once it was loaded with chairs.

Problem 3 — This is an old lift with odd components. No one had combo assemblies to sell to Magic. Magic had to custom make their own.

We’re now 5 years into a 1 year job…

Ugh.

What sort of engineering error causes the rope to fall off? Mis-alignment of towers?

Is the combo assemblies the answer to the rope falling off?

Jeez...not sure I want to ride a lift that has that kind of probelm!

Yikes.

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