Sugarbush death today

goldsbar · Jan 17, 2017

RIP. I was at Mount Ellen the day before (Sunday). Parts got up to 3" of light fresh snow in the AM which made some of the skiing pretty decent, but it was clear what was underneath and that became more and more apparent as that light snow got pushed off as the day progressed. On my race-like skis I could do some carving, on my soft 98s it was more like sliding sideways with some marginal steering action. A few sections would have required ice skates to carve.

I imagine Monday was like the end of Sunday. The intermediate trails in the sun weren't bad at Lincoln Peak on Monday, but the trails in the shade were boilerplate. I made the mistake of taking my 9 y/o down Stein's (he was fine with it 2 days prior). My limited impression is that Lincoln peak gets far more grooming and snow making attention.

SkiFanE · Jan 17, 2017

Husband I were talking about this over weekend. If we are going what we consider "slow", still going probably 20-25mph without much effort. Medium is probably 25-40mph, then if you're really gunning it, 50 without a problem. It's a freaking dangerous sport! Helmets are rated for something like 14mph impact? Do the math....you're in trouble even with a helmet on.

For that reason I avoid ice and probably why I skied a total of 8 runs all weekend. I freak in ice because you speed up when you don't want to. I spend 95% of time hugging edge of trail in bumps. Trust me - I'm slow lol. Sometimes I can zipper down bumps on sides but usually I'm pretty slow and would have trouble if I hit a tree but probably not deadly. Snow pipes and machines scare me more. But I also avoid risk to the nth degree - why I bagged out in White Heat on Sunday. I wanted to be around Monday lol.

Husband had huge crash with helmet on in 2010. When we read about this death - really hit us - we have 3 kids and they were skiing that day. Luck, good health, who knows what let him live that day (medflight, ICU, rehab, months out of work....). We still ski and always will. But makes you appreciate each day on earth and on hill - but never disrespect the danger - keeps me in check. Snow fences, more safety measures will not solve this, nothing will but common sense and luck when you hurl your body down an icy slope at 25+mph. So be sure your disability and life insurance are current!

dlague · Jan 17, 2017

SkiFanE said:
Husband I were talking about this over weekend. If we are going what we consider "slow", still going probably 20-25mph without much effort. Medium is probably 25-40mph, then if you're really gunning it, 50 without a problem. It's a freaking dangerous sport! Helmets are rated for something like 14mph impact? Do the math....you're in trouble even with a helmet on.

For that reason I avoid ice and probably why I skied a total of 8 runs all weekend. I freak in ice because you speed up when you don't want to. I spend 95% of time hugging edge of trail in bumps. Trust me - I'm slow lol. Sometimes I can zipper down bumps on sides but usually I'm pretty slow and would have trouble if I hit a tree but probably not deadly. Snow pipes and machines scare me more. But I also avoid risk to the nth degree - why I bagged out in White Heat on Sunday. I wanted to be around Monday lol.

Husband had huge crash with helmet on in 2010. When we read about this death - really hit us - we have 3 kids and they were skiing that day. Luck, good health, who knows what let him live that day (medflight, ICU, rehab, months out of work....). We still ski and always will. But makes you appreciate each day on earth and on hill - but never disrespect the danger - keeps me in check. Snow fences, more safety measures will not solve this, nothing will but common sense and luck when you hurl your body down an icy slope at 25+mph. So be sure your disability and life insurance are current!

Good post! My wife and I were talking about helmet effectiveness last night and we came to the conclusion that a helmet while it may not be effective the faster you go, at least that is a magnitude of protection that is above no protection. So in the end a helmet is not a guarantee but it is some level of protection.

How many here have hit their head on branches going through the woods?

My wife feels much more comfortable skiing in Colorado with wider trails and open bowls. We both have had falls that pushed us close to tree lines while skiing relatively fast and she feels less threaten here. Trails not as crowded, not as many bottlenecks and softer trails and snow are also good.

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cdskier · Jan 17, 2017

SkiFanE said:
Husband I were talking about this over weekend. If we are going what we consider "slow", still going probably 20-25mph without much effort. Medium is probably 25-40mph, then if you're really gunning it, 50 without a problem. It's a freaking dangerous sport! Helmets are rated for something like 14mph impact? Do the math....you're in trouble even with a helmet on.

I don't go what I consider slow, and yet most days my gps app says I top out in the mid to upper 30s for speed (still plenty fast enough to do serious damage though). I don't know how accurate my gps app is, but it is fairly consistent so I'm inclined to think it is accurate. Usually the only times I hit 40+ are when I'm straightlining it down a runout.

VTKilarney · Jan 17, 2017

SkiFanE,

This study, although somewhat dated, found that the average skier traveled at 26.7 mph. So 25-40 mph may be what you consider to be medium speed, but you are definitely on the fringe.

https://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/JAI12092.htm

SkiFanE · Jan 17, 2017

VTKilarney said:
SkiFanE,

This study, although somewhat dated, found that the average skier traveled at 26.7 mph. So 25-40 mph may be what you consider to be medium speed, but you are definitely on the fringe.

https://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/JAI12092.htm

Oh I believe you. I don't have GPS data (I work in iT and hate tech lmao) so I was just speculating. But the point was we go much faster than we realize. Even beginners are going at a decent clip. I'll let my skis run (I usually ski volkls for their stability at speed) in right conditions - and last weekend I would never. Dust on crust makes me leery. After the snowy few weeks we had, my lackadaisical powder and bumps skiing stance was causing me to be a skidder so had to change up stance to power the front of skis to cut the ice. Need to be ready for ice at any moment - hate that.

mccleaks · Jan 17, 2017

cdskier said:
I don't go what I consider slow, and yet most days my gps app says I top out in the mid to upper 30s for speed (still plenty fast enough to do serious damage though). I don't know how accurate my gps app is, but it is fairly consistent so I'm inclined to think it is accurate. Usually the only times I hit 40+ are when I'm straightlining it down a runout.

I use a GPS tracking app too. It says the top speed I hit last season was 59MPH. That was probably only once and on a day with some nice hard pack where I thought it would be fun to try and hit a top speed (probably straight lined something steep). I think 30-40 is definitely not out of the ordinary as an average speed for any decent and confident skier. That must be more than a helmet is rated for, but I guess helmet is better than nothing and we'd all hope to slow down a bit between the time you fall and the time you impact something.

bdfreetuna · Jan 17, 2017

cdskier said:
I don't go what I consider slow

Nobody does.

SkiFanE said:
I avoid ice

Don't we all!

dlague · Jan 17, 2017

bdfreetuna said:
Nobody does.

Don't we all!

I avoid ice too, so I movedown to Colorado!

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Brad J · Jan 17, 2017

In the early 80's Killington made a big deal that they had 11 snow grooming machines, and that winter thy had 5 death's before Presidents Day, My buddy and I sent the GM a letter with the premiss that grooming equals death's. IMO this was true then and is true today, People generally ski way over their heads on groomed slopes. Just notice your own speeds on ungroomed slopes, I am sure it's slower than on a hard and fast groomer. I just came back from Snowbird and with all the fresh snow we had there was almost nothing groomed out and smooth. The skiing speeds were considerable slower than back east. I know that groomers are the norm today but it has a price, and more death's helmets or not is the result.

dlague · Jan 17, 2017

Brad J said:
In the early 80's Killington made a big deal that they had 11 snow grooming machines, and that winter thy had 5 death's before Presidents Day, My buddy and I sent the GM a letter with the premiss that grooming equals death's. IMO this was true then and is true today, People generally ski way over their heads on groomed slopes. Just notice your own speeds on ungroomed slopes, I am sure it's slower than on a hard and fast groomer. I just came back from Snowbird and with all the fresh snow we had there was almost nothing groomed out and smooth. The skiing speeds were considerable slower than back east. I know that groomers are the norm today but it has a price, and more death's helmets or not is the result.

I get that! When there is fresh here in Colorado the runs are powder to chop and high speed runs are limited compared to groomers.

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JimG. · Jan 18, 2017

Brad J said:
In the early 80's Killington made a big deal that they had 11 snow grooming machines, and that winter thy had 5 death's before Presidents Day, My buddy and I sent the GM a letter with the premiss that grooming equals death's. IMO this was true then and is true today, People generally ski way over their heads on groomed slopes. Just notice your own speeds on ungroomed slopes, I am sure it's slower than on a hard and fast groomer. I just came back from Snowbird and with all the fresh snow we had there was almost nothing groomed out and smooth. The skiing speeds were considerable slower than back east. I know that groomers are the norm today but it has a price, and more death's helmets or not is the result.

+1

I have said this for decades. Never heard of anyone dying skiing bumps and flying off the trail into trees.

Grooming=Death.

Jully · Jan 18, 2017

JimG. said:
+1

I have said this for decades. Never heard of anyone dying skiing bumps and flying off the trail into trees.

Grooming=Death.

Sure groomers have the potential to be more dangerous, but like it or not, ungroomed trails do not equate to skiing for many people today. Groomers are to skiing has become as synonymous as tractors are to farming for a substantial portion of the ski population. They can't imagine skiing without their corduroy.

As much as I would appreciate it if many areas left more trails to bump up, it would actually be more dangerous if an area did that nowadays. Imagine if Wachusett left three trails to bump up. The weekend traffic on the remaining 4 groomed major trails would be insane and infinitely more dangerous.

JimG. · Jan 18, 2017

Jully said:
Sure groomers have the potential to be more dangerous, but like it or not, ungroomed trails do not equate to skiing for many people today. Groomers are to skiing has become as synonymous as tractors are to farming for a substantial portion of the ski population. They can't imagine skiing without their corduroy.

As much as I would appreciate it if many areas left more trails to bump up, it would actually be more dangerous if an area did that nowadays. Imagine if Wachusett left three trails to bump up. The weekend traffic on the remaining 4 groomed major trails would be insane and infinitely more dangerous.

I can't disagree with you. We live in a time of catering to the lowest common denominator.

Maybe folks could commit to becoming better skiers. And learning to ski ungroomed terrain. Maybe ski areas could promote teaching as a way to get better and then provide ski teachers who actually deliver on that idea.

Stupid me! Just easier and cheaper for everyone to just bulldoze everything.

Not Sure · Jan 18, 2017

JimG. said:
+1

I have said this for decades. Never heard of anyone dying skiing bumps and flying off the trail into trees.

Grooming=Death.

I was at Killington in the 80's , Skiing bear mountain and watched someone being taken off Wildfire in a sled with their head bandaged up there was a lot of blood !I later heard that they died ,not sure if they hit a tree or not .Condtions were really good but my friend who was an intermediate caught an edge and landed on the Mogul and dislocated his shoulder.

Back then nobody wore a helmet.

cdskier · Jan 18, 2017

JimG. said:
I can't disagree with you. We live in a time of catering to the lowest common denominator.

Maybe folks could commit to becoming better skiers. And learning to ski ungroomed terrain. Maybe ski areas could promote teaching as a way to get better and then provide ski teachers who actually deliver on that idea.

Stupid me! Just easier and cheaper for everyone to just bulldoze everything.

I enjoy a mixture of both. In the east with freeze/thaws and limited snow at times, not grooming would make skiing either not possible or not fun at times. Also not sure I agree that it is "easier and cheaper". Grooming costs a significant amount of money between equipment and staff.

At Sugarbush it isn't unusual for over 50% of the terrain to be UN-groomed. When conditions are good, I love the un-groomed. When conditions are not so good, you need grooming. Firm icy-bumps all over the mountain would turn many off from the sport.

Edd · Jan 18, 2017

cdskier said:
When conditions are good, I love the un-groomed. When conditions are not so good, you need grooming. Firm icy-bumps all over the mountain would turn many off from the sport.

That's my take, also. If bumps were always spring-like or powdery, I'd rarely leave them. Usually, they aren't.

Edit: That's why YouTube vids with bump lessons make me roll my eyes. The bumps in those vids are never hard eastern ones, always soft western. Yeah, those I can ski decently. Please impress me with a "How to ski icy bumps" video. Haven't found that one yet.

JimG. · Jan 18, 2017

cdskier said:
I enjoy a mixture of both. In the east with freeze/thaws and limited snow at times, not grooming would make skiing either not possible or not fun at times. Also not sure I agree that it is "easier and cheaper". Grooming costs a significant amount of money between equipment and staff.

At Sugarbush it isn't unusual for over 50% of the terrain to be UN-groomed. When conditions are good, I love the un-groomed. When conditions are not so good, you need grooming. Firm icy-bumps all over the mountain would turn many off from the sport.

I ski groomers, definitely more fun than ice bumps.

If my home hill groomed 50% and left 50% ungroomed I would not have posted anything. My impression of Peaks is that they groom EVERYTHING. At least that is the case at Hunter.

All I'm asking for is some balance like you as a pass holder get at SB.

Maybe the best way to state my feelings is as follows: as it stands now with my experiences with Peaks at Hunter I will not be purchasing any Peaks pass next season. I'll stick with the NYS 3 in 1 and a midweek pass at K.

BenedictGomez · Jan 18, 2017

Jully said:
As much as I would appreciate it if many areas left more trails to bump up, it would actually be more dangerous if an area did that nowadays. Imagine if Wachusett left three trails to bump up. The weekend traffic on the remaining 4 groomed major trails would be insane and infinitely more dangerous.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Groomed trails are WAY more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it. And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.

Jully · Jan 18, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
I couldn't disagree with you more.

Groomed trails are WAY more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it. And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.

That is a fair point about reducing speed. I suppose I was more thinking of injuries in general rather than skiing deaths when I posted that.

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