Sugarbush death today

dlague · Jan 18, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
I couldn't disagree with you more.

Groomed trails are WAY more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it. And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.

Report to your point!

http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/west/2017/01/17/276221.htm

According to the annual safety report by the National Ski Areas Association, the average person who died on the slopes of U.S. ski resorts during the 2015/2016 season was a 30-something experienced male skier wearing a helmet who hit a tree going too fast on an intermediate run.

Of course this year is not following the age or helmet stat they report.

“Beginners on green runs tend to be more cautious,” said Jasper Shealy, who analyzes safety data for the association and has studied ski safety trends for more than 30 years. “It’s when you get on the blue runs with a mix of abilities and speeds that things become less controlled.”

benski · Jan 18, 2017

I was going to Killington for spring skiing last year and was totally pissed to see outer limits was the only Ungroomed groomed trail. I understand some ski areas need every acre of grooming they can get for beginners but does Killington really need 4 groomed double blacks to handle all the people who hate moguls in mid march.

drjeff · Jan 18, 2017

A plethora of groomed trails, especially in the East, for sure has the potential to be more dangerous to the those using the trails.

A plethora of ungroomed trails, most certainly in the East, will be more "dangerous" to the vast majority of resorts bottom lines!!

JimG. · Jan 18, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
I couldn't disagree with you more.

Groomed trails are WAY more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it. And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.

I go back to lowest common denominator thinking.

Nobody wants to admit (or dare say) that the real problem is poor skiers who venture onto expert trails they don't have the skills to ski safely on. So instead of telling these skiers to stay off those trails and putting infrastructure and employees in place to enforce those safety rules the solution is to dumb down the trail and make it "easier" so everyone can ski it.

Truly faulty thinking. There is no way that a steep headwall of ice is easier to ski than an equally icy headwall full of bumps. Fall on steep icy bumps and you hit a few then stop. Fall on steep flats and most skiers panic and slide far and fast. And some die.

All it is going to take is one lawsuit to this effect and the next thing you know there won't be any open expert terrain anymore.

BenedictGomez · Jan 18, 2017

Jully said:
That is a fair point about reducing speed. I suppose I was more thinking of injuries in general rather than skiing deaths when I posted that.

Well if a trail becomes the Grand Central Parkway at rush hour, sure, I agree more injuries are likely. But I still think there are more non-fatal injuries on groomers than on bump trails, partially due to decreased speed, and partially due to statistically greater average skills of skiers on bump trails, and well as skier numbers in general (i.e. more folks ski groomers than bumps).

dlague said:
Report to your point!

Holy cow, that is literally precisely what I had guessed!

Only slight caveat is I said "intermediate" skier, whereas this says "experienced", but that makes me wonder if they consider "experienced" to be any non-beginner?

the average person who died on the slopes of U.S. ski resorts during the 2015/2016 season was a 30-something experienced male skier wearing a helmet who hit a tree going too fast on an intermediate run.

dlague · Jan 18, 2017

benski said:
I was going to Killington for spring skiing last year and was totally pissed to see outer limits was the only Ungroomed groomed trail. I understand some ski areas need every acre of grooming they can get for beginners but does Killington really need 4 groomed double blacks to handle all the people who hate moguls in mid march.

First, I do not think they are grooming black runs for beginners. Second, I like groomed steeper runs where the conditions will change through the day and new bumps form. Groomed steeper terrain does not stay groomed for long unless it is boiler plate or very frozen. Third, not every advanced skier is a bump skier.

I know my knees can only take so much so I mix it up - may be Killington is addressing a target market that wants variety and is more focused not so much on beginners but the Intermediate to Advanced crowd.

JimG. · Jan 18, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
Only slight caveat is I said "intermediate" skier, whereas this says "experienced", but that makes me wonder if they consider "experienced" to be any non-beginner?

A fair assumption since they did not say "expert".

Domeskier · Jan 18, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
Sounds ugly as sin?

Yep. And no access to the trees if that's your thing.

cdskier · Jan 18, 2017

Edd said:
That's my take, also. If bumps were always spring-like or powdery, I'd rarely leave them. Usually, they aren't.

Edit: That's why YouTube vids with bump lessons make me roll my eyes. The bumps in those vids are never hard eastern ones, always soft western. Yeah, those I can ski decently. Please impress me with a "How to ski icy bumps" video. Haven't found that one yet.

Hah...so true!

dlague · Jan 18, 2017

Edd said:
That's my take, also. If bumps were always spring-like or powdery, I'd rarely leave them. Usually, they aren't.

Edit: That's why YouTube vids with bump lessons make me roll my eyes. The bumps in those vids are never hard eastern ones, always soft western. Yeah, those I can ski decently. Please impress me with a "How to ski icy bumps" video. Haven't found that one yet.

I have never been even remotely a fan of hard bumps. They are sketchy at best. Even in the spring when nights are frozen and days are warm, the first couple hours and not fun.

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cdskier · Jan 18, 2017

dlague said:
Report to your point!

http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/west/2017/01/17/276221.htm

The Jasper Shealy guy frequently quoted in these articles has an impressive resume... (although perhaps I'm biased as he's a former professor from my alma mater)

https://www.rit.edu/alumni/news/story/where/Oct15

Jasper “Jake” Shealy, retired head of the Industrial and Systems Engineering department in the Kate Gleason College of Engineering, has continued to combine his passion for research, statistics and snowsports since leaving RIT in 2000. Dr. Shealy is Emeritus Principal and Human Factors Engineer at Guidance Engineering and Applied Research in Seattle, WA (www.guidanceengineering.com), where he has consulted since 2000. As the company’s “science overlord,” he continues to play an active role conducting ski safety research and is recognized as an expert in determining root causes of systems failures in winter recreational sports including skiing, snowboarding, tubing, and sledding, as well consumer product failures and industrial accidents.

Dr. Shealy is currently a member of the Board of Directors of the International Society for Skiing Safety (ISSS). He also has been a co-investigator on the Sugarbush Ski Injury Research Project, with Dr. Robert J. Johnson and Carl Ettlinger of the Department of Orthopedics and Rehabilitation at the University of Vermont in Burlington. Together, they have conducted an ongoing study of skiing and snowboarding injuries at the Sugarbush Resort in Vermont. This study has continuously tracked injuries at Sugarbush since the winter of 1972/73 up to the present. The colleagues are also the authors of the ACL Awareness Project, and in 2006, co-authored “Do Helmets Reduce Fatalities or Merely Alter the Patterns of Death?” The findings described how helmets may be effective at preventing minor injuries, yet they have not been shown to reduce the overall incidence of fatalities in skiing and snowboarding. He continues updating the information and is called upon by media as an expert regularly.

Dr. Shealy is a sought-after snow sports safety speaker at conferences around the world. As a member of the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) and the International Society for Skiing Safety (ISSS), Dr. Shealy served as F27 Vice-Chair from 1993 to 1999, Chair from 2000 to 2006 and Vice-Chair again from 2007 to 2014. He served as a technical delegate representing the U.S. at ISO meetings on matters relating to ski and snowboard equipment issues from 1990 to 2013. And he is the current chair of the Statistics subcommittee and past chair of the Ski Boot subcommittee. Dr. Sealy is also a regular co-editor of Skiing Trauma and Safety.

JimG. · Jan 18, 2017

cdskier said:
The Jasper Shealy guy frequently quoted in these articles has an impressive resume... (although perhaps I'm biased as he's a former professor from my alma mater)

https://www.rit.edu/alumni/news/story/where/Oct15

My son David is graduating from RIT this spring.

Whitey · Jan 18, 2017

dlague said:
I have never been even remotely a fan of hard bumps. They are sketchy at best. Even in the spring when nights are frozen and days are warm, the first couple hours and not fun.

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100% agree and I am the kind of skier where if the bumps are even marginally OK (some snow or somewhat soft) I'll ski them all day over groomed runs. But when they are frozen solid I get nothing from skiing those.

I think that many on this forum are too hard on the mtn ops at eastern areas and characterize them as mogul assassins who wake up every morning looking to crush and groom out every bump on the mtn like they were mice infesting their homes. I think the reality is that once the bumps freeze solid - no one is skiing them and those runs are useless to the mtn. Unless there's a chance at new snow covering them or the temps softening them up - if they want to get any use out of a frozen bump run then they have to groom them out and hope that they re-form after people start skiing that run again.

cdskier · Jan 18, 2017

JimG. said:
My son David is graduating from RIT this spring.

Congrats. It is a good school. I graduated back in 2004.

Jully · Jan 18, 2017

BenedictGomez said:
Well if a trail becomes the Grand Central Parkway at rush hour, sure, I agree more injuries are likely. But I still think there are more non-fatal injuries on groomers than on bump trails, partially due to decreased speed, and partially due to statistically greater average skills of skiers on bump trails, and well as skier numbers in general (i.e. more folks ski groomers than bumps).

Oh I completely agree with you.

What I was getting at was that too many people ski groomers nowadays. If a resort tries to limit the number of groomed trails that previously groomed everything (i.e. Okemo, Wachusett) then they won't see a decrease in the number of injuries, they will see an increase.

Substantially more 1-5 days/year skiers aren't going to pick up bumps if there are just more bump trails offered (though I'm sure a few would). They will all just crowd the crap out of whatever groomers are available making them more dangerous (though maybe not more deadly) than they already are.

Fixing the 'groomers are deadly' issue isn't as simple as stopping all grooming... it would require a massive culture shift in the sport with instructors, lessons, and publicity, like JimG mentioned. That'll be tough. Not to mention a good many resorts would see massive profit problems, like Dr. Jeff said!

Jully · Jan 18, 2017

dlague said:
I know my knees can only take so much so I mix it up - may be Killington is addressing a target market that wants variety and is more focused not so much on beginners but the Intermediate to Advanced crowd.

Also last spring... K groomed everything flat multiple times because of the especially horrible freeze-thaw cycle that was happening. Pretty sure they have way more ungroomed runs than Outer Limits on a regular basis, just maybe not last March.

deadheadskier · Jan 18, 2017

dlague said:
First, I do not think they are grooming black runs for beginners. Second, I like groomed steeper runs where the conditions will change through the day and new bumps form. Groomed steeper terrain does not stay groomed for long unless it is boiler plate or very frozen. Third, not every advanced skier is a bump skier.

I know my knees can only take so much so I mix it up - may be Killington is addressing a target market that wants variety and is more focused not so much on beginners but the Intermediate to Advanced crowd.

I mix things up too, but unless I am misunderstanding you, I disagree with the statement "not every advanced skier is a bump skier."

If someone can't ski bumps reasonably well, I do not consider them an advanced skier. To be an advanced skier, you need to be able to ski all terrain types very well.

In regards to grooming expert terrain, certain trails should never see a groomer unless it's need after a thaw/freeze event. Outer Limits I would consider to be such a trail. Grooming it just dumbs it down for people who can't ski bumps.

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chuckstah · Jan 18, 2017

http://www.wcax.com/story/34288358/long-island-man-dies-in-snowboarding-accident-in-upstate-ny

Another death over this past weekend. A snowwboarder at Belleayre. This time.

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deadheadskier · Jan 18, 2017

And in regards to skiing icy bumps, the WC event that just happened at Whiteface was on a frozen solid course except for the chopped up landings for the jumps.

I may not ski as many bumps if they are icy, but I will still ski at least a few runs down them. Really no different to me than boiler plate groomers.

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dlague · Jan 18, 2017

deadheadskier said:
I mix things up too, but unless I am misunderstanding you, I disagree with the statement "not every advanced skier is a bump skier."

If someone can't ski bumps reasonably well, I do not consider them an advanced skier. To be an advanced skier, you need to be able to ski all terrain types very well.

In regards to grooming expert terrain, certain trails should never see a groomer unless it's need after a thaw/freeze event. Outer Limits I would consider to be such a trail. Grooming it just dumbs it down for people who can't ski bumps.

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Misunderstanding - what is meant is, there are advanced skiers that can ski bumps well but choose not to.

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