Vail to buy Stowe?

snoseek · Feb 23, 2017

I highly doubt you'll see a Stowe only pass

Highway Star · Feb 23, 2017

snoseek said:
I highly doubt you'll see a Stowe only pass

eastern powder baby said:
I’m not 100% sure if that was a response to my comment. If you think Stowe won’t be on the Epic Pass, I don’t think you understand Vail’s strategy. The whole point of the thing is to lure people out west so they spend big $$$ on a vacation there. That’s why Stowe is such a great area for Vail to buy - because of its reach to metro NYC, Boston, and Montreal. The biggest question I have is whether they think that 10 days at Stowe will be compelling enough for easterners to buy it over some of the other options mentioned here.

If you’re referring to pricing, the lineage is pretty clear.

mbedle said:
Hopefully with the Stowe purchase being done a lot earlier than the Whistler purchase, which I think was done partly into this season, I would expect that Stowe and Whistler will both be fully incorporated into the Epic Pass next season. Hopefully, they will ofter a Stowe only pass cheaper than the Epic pass.

Guys, the crowding at Stowe is real. The forerunner and Gondi get massive lines on Weekends. Yes, they do have Spruce and the Outlook Double, but it's very limiting to ski when crowded. Killington handles crowds better and you can avoid crowds better.

Stowe's ADULT BLACKOUT PASS WAS $1668 EARLY PURCHASE FOR '16/'17 . Yes, I understand Vail's strategy, but Vail proper can handle 2 million skier visits per year. Stowe is crowded even with pricing 50% higher then it's competition. If you go less than its competition, it's going to be like fitting 25lb of crap in a 5lb bag.

Yes, you will get several days of access to Stowe with the epic passes, which will lure easterners who buy a pass to ski out west. Having western resorts on the Stowe pass will entice people to travel out west. Just doing that, and keeping a Stowe pass around $1500, will still dramatically increase crowding at Stowe.

drjeff · Feb 23, 2017

snoseek said:
I highly doubt you'll see a Stowe only pass

Agree 99.999999999%

Never say never after all! ;-)

drjeff · Feb 23, 2017

Highway Star said:
Guys, the crowding at Stowe is real. The forerunner and Gondi get massive lines on Weekends. Yes, they do have Spruce and the Outlook Double, but it's very limiting to ski when crowded. Killington handles crowds better and you can avoid crowds better.

Stowe's ADULT BLACKOUT PASS WAS $1668 EARLY PURCHASE FOR '16/'17. Yes, I understand Vail's strategy, but Vail proper can handle 2 million skier visits per year. Stowe is crowded even with pricing 50% higher then it's competition. If you go less than its competition, it's going to be like fitting 25lb of crap in a 5lb bag.

Agree to the most part.

The unknown is how will the Epic local rates (if they even offer an Epic local for Stowe) effect the purchase by locals and the Burlington College age crew if it's a decent amount more than the current local deals they get????

I guess we'll find out in the next month or so when the prices for next season Epic drop and we see how it all comes into play with other pass options before we all wait until next winter to really see what happens liftline wise at various areas.......

mbedle · Feb 23, 2017

I was thinking that they may set Whistler and Stowe up like the mid-western resorts.

VTKilarney · Feb 23, 2017

drjeff said:
Agree to the most part.

The unknown is how will the Epic local rates effect the purchase by locals and the Burlington College age crew if it's a decent amount more than the current local deals they get????

Very good point. I've said earlier in this thread that the locals aren't nearly as likely to be making trips out west. They also aren't the biggest F&B spenders. I could see putting the squeeze on the locals just to help reduce overcrowding.

deadheadskier · Feb 23, 2017

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/2017/02/22/vail-buys-stowe/

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bigbob · Feb 23, 2017

Perhaps Jay should be more worried about the sale than areas closer to the US markets, Canadians may snap up the cheap Epic passes for Stowe rather than a New York metro skier due to the longer drive time.

hovercraft · Feb 23, 2017

Highway Star said:
Guys, the crowding at Stowe is real. The forerunner and Gondi get massive lines on Weekends. Yes, they do have Spruce and the Outlook Double, but it's very limiting to ski when crowded. Killington handles crowds better and you can avoid crowds better.

Stowe's ADULT BLACKOUT PASS WAS $1668 EARLY PURCHASE FOR '16/'17 . Yes, I understand Vail's strategy, but Vail proper can handle 2 million skier visits per year. Stowe is crowded even with pricing 50% higher then it's competition. If you go less than its competition, it's going to be like fitting 25lb of crap in a 5lb bag.

Yes, you will get several days of access to Stowe with the epic passes, which will lure easterners who buy a pass to ski out west. Having western resorts on the Stowe pass will entice people to travel out west. Just doing that, and keeping a Stowe pass around $1500, will still dramatically increase crowding at Stowe.

I have been out on the mountain over 50 times this year. Besides the holiday weekends the lines have never been more then 15 minutes in my experience. Even on the Sat of Presidents weekend you could do the singles line in 15. So the only over crowding i have seen this year it the parking situation which was just ridiculous. Once people got to the Mountain the crowds get disbursed pretty well.

Jcb890 · Feb 23, 2017

burski said:
The 4000 acres was the biggest laugh for me as well - they must be assuming everything between SB and MRG is skiable terrain....

mbedle said:
Sugarbush has approximately 2,000 in-bound acres surrounding all the cut trails and available woods using traverses. The slidebrrok area is approximately 2,000 acres. Hence the 4K number.

cdskier said:
Exactly. He didn't say "on trail acreage". Sugarbush openly encourages skiing of all their terrain including Slide Brook. Is every acre of that 4000 skiable? No, but neither are every single acre of in-bounds terrain at other resorts. He didn't lie, you just need to interpret it properly.

Haha come on dude. It is basically a lie.
If we use that logic, Jay Peak must be close to 4,000+ acres since there's woods all over near there people could possibly explore. Big Sky, Montana was absolutely huge, but there was woods and hills and stuff that could be hiked all over near the mountain... maybe they should boast 25,000 acres of terrain instead of their piddly 5,700. Hey, if it doesn't have to be skiable acres, the limits are endless!

deadheadskier said:
Agreed. I don't think MC Pass is a compelling product. Only 2 day tickets per mountain is limiting. Sure, you get 50% off additional tickets, but those are all very expensive mountains, so still pretty expensive add on days. Also, it's really difficult to do a multi-mountain vacation on MC vs Maxx or Epic. All of the MC mountains are considerably far apart from one another.

Agreed. Also, only Stowe as an East Coast option made it basically pointless unless you had a trip planned to one of those expensive resorts. At least MAX Pass has a bunch of New England options even if one isn't traveling West or North of New England.

benski said:
Is this an high school english class? Why are we putting so much effort into understanding Win's mood?

Oh, the irony.

burski · Feb 23, 2017

Very interesting (and accurate) take on this.

deadheadskier said:
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/2017/02/22/vail-buys-stowe/

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bushpilot · Feb 23, 2017

deadheadskier said:
Agreed. I don't think MC Pass is a compelling product. Only 2 day tickets per mountain is limiting. Sure, you get 50% off additional tickets, but those are all very expensive mountains, so still pretty expensive add on days. Also, it's really difficult to do a multi-mountain vacation on MC vs Maxx or Epic. All of the MC mountains are considerably far apart from one another.

I think the MC is aimed at the wealthy skiers that like to travel but skiing is sort of 2nd or 3rd on the list as opposed to name dropping on places they are going or have been. My thinking (although probably wrong) is that the target MC user goes out to jackson hole on Thursday. Stays 3 nights. They won't ski Thursday but will spend money on dinner and drinks. Maybe they go out Friday and Saturday and they leave Sunday all the time spending money on lodging, food and beverage. If they are avid skiers they pay for a ticket Sunday before they leave. Most are probably planning their Alta/Snowbird trip or already have reservations made. Now when they get back they can tell all their highfalutin friends about how they are taking Constance and Trevor out to Utah in a month and how much they all loved jackson hole but not as much this high end place or that one.

yeggous · Feb 23, 2017

hovercraft said:
I have been out on the mountain over 50 times this year. Besides the holiday weekends the lines have never been more then 15 minutes in my experience. Even on the Sat of Presidents weekend you could do the singles line in 15. So the only over crowding i have seen this year it the parking situation which was just ridiculous. Once people got to the Mountain the crowds get disbursed pretty well.

15 minute lines are ridiculous. No way I would tolerate that.

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hovercraft · Feb 23, 2017

yeggous said:
15 minute lines are ridiculous. No way I would tolerate that.

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Thats good one less person at the mountain. On another note where do you go on a Holiday weekend and not wait 15 minutes?

machski · Feb 23, 2017

Highway Star said:
Five days at Whistler are included on the 16/17 full Epic pass. A full whistler pass was about $1200+ on early purchase. What resorts are on the 17/18 Epic will be announced in March.

I know plenty of Killington skiers that get epic/epic local passes for trips out west, so even limited Stowe access will benefit them.

I’m guessing an Epic pass will give 10 days at Stowe, Epic Local 5 days with Blackouts. A full Stowe pass will be in the $1200 to $1500 range early purchase, and have all theepic resort access out west.Even thiswill uncomfortably increase crowds.

Anything else would result in abhorrent crowding at Stowe.

http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/resorts/whistler-blackcomb.aspx

You cannot compare what Whistler was this year on EPIC pass. They said straight up that it would not be fully integrated this year (Whistler was still on MC pass this year too). I fully expect an unrestricted EPIC pass to be good for unlimited days at Stowe next year since the acquisition is happening early enough. Vail could care less if it is overcrowded.

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snoseek · Feb 23, 2017

hovercraft said:
Thats good one less person at the mountain. On another note where do you go on a Holiday weekend and not wait 15 minutes?

Well I'm guessing he would say somewhere in NH, and he would probably be right outside of Loon or maybe Gunstock

snoseek · Feb 23, 2017

machski said:
You cannot compare what Whistler was this year on EPIC pass. They said straight up that it would not be fully integrated this year (Whistler was still on MC pass this year too). I fully expect an unrestricted EPIC pass to be good for unlimited days at Stowe next year since the acquisition is happening early enough. Vail could care less if it is overcrowded.

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You're right. They will bump up lift capacity to alleviate lines but that just dumps more people on the hill making it at times a treacherous experience. Also prepare for the traffic police...and as much hate as those people get its absolutely necessary in high traffic areas from my experience.

And that is really my main peeve with the trend for massive uphill capacity. Those six pack and bubble chairs don't create a better experience for this guy. I like fast lifts but too many and you have a shitshow. Check out the bottom of east peak at Heavenly or peak 8 at breck on a busy day....no thanks

WWF-VT · Feb 23, 2017

hovercraft said:
Thats good one less person at the mountain. On another note where do you go on a Holiday weekend and not wait 15 minutes?

Mt Ellen

bushpilot · Feb 23, 2017

WWF-VT said:
Mt Ellen

/\ Exactly. Sugarbush! LP until 10am and then MEllen for the rest of the day.

cdskier · Feb 23, 2017

bushpilot said:
/\ Exactly. Sugarbush! LP until 10am and then MEllen for the rest of the day.

Even LP might be below 15 minutes at Bravo and Valley House. My cousin was there this weekend with his family and said lines were moving pretty quick.

Vail to buy Stowe?

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