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Aspen / KSL acquired Mammoth Resorts

thetrailboss

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Sorry - miss understood you, thought you were saying that DV was trying to sell to Boyne. Given everything that DV put into the place, I highly doubt that Boyne is in a position to purchase it. Especially if they couldn't get funding for it before at a cheaper price.

Agreed. Not sure who would step up to buy it other than Boyne or maybe Vail if they could ever get the Ski Link done (fat chance).
 

4aprice

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Agreed. Not sure who would step up to buy it other than Boyne or maybe Vail if they could ever get the Ski Link done (fat chance).

When the owners of DV put Solitude on Max, they did not include Deer Valley itself. Maybe its more valuable as a partnership with Brighton as it is now on Max. Speaking for myself, we did not even go up LCC (PC valley either) on our week long trip out there last year.

I would love to see Boyne operate both and break into the Colorado scene some how. Their east coast portfolio is better then either Aspen's or Vail's right now IMO. Ah, that perfect travel/ticket combination that's so elusive (you know the one that has all the areas you like at the right price?). March will be interesting when all these new products start to roll out.

Alex

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mbedle

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Looks like Crystal mountain wasn't actually sold to John Kircher, he was the CEO in Boyne Resorts (His dad started the business). He acquired full ownership of Crystal by giving up his shares in Boyne Resorts.
 

thetrailboss

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Looks like Crystal mountain wasn't actually sold to John Kircher, he was the CEO in Boyne Resorts (His dad started the business). He acquired full ownership of Crystal by giving up his shares in Boyne Resorts.

Interesting.
 

dlague

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When the owners of DV put Solitude on Max, they did not include Deer Valley itself. Maybe its more valuable as a partnership with Brighton as it is now on Max. Speaking for myself, we did not even go up LCC (PC valley either) on our week long trip out there last year.

I would love to see Boyne operate both and break into the Colorado scene some how. Their east coast portfolio is better then either Aspen's or Vail's right now IMO. Ah, that perfect travel/ticket combination that's so elusive (you know the one that has all the areas you like at the right price?). March will be interesting when all these new products start to roll out.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

While I would have to agree in some sense regarding Boyne and their East Coast presence, some might argue that Stowe for Vail and Stratton and Tremblant for KSL are better oriented for where the market is. Boyne is better suited for the Boston Market. Sugarloaf is not a day trip for 99% so they rely on vacationers and to some degree Sunday River is in the same boat with about 75% of their visitors. Loon (Boston Mountain) is the best positioned since it is drive-able for a day trip from the MA border and some might even argue from Boston (a bit long) but similar to day trips I have made to Stowe from Concord, NH.

Stowe is well positioned to reach several markets (Montreal, NY, Boston) and they have a great town near by as well as Burlington not that far away. Stowe is about equidistant from Boston as Sunday River - I probably would choose Stowe.

Stratton is very well positioned for the NY Market and like Stowe pretty good for the Boston market. Temblant is very well positioned for the Montreal market but they get visitors from all over and they to have a fantastic town at the base - probably the best out of all the resorts mentioned.

While Boyne my have one great resort with Sugarloaf and two decent resorts with Sunday River and Loon, Vail got one of New England's crown jewels and I bet they are not done yet. KSL well they got one of Quebec's crown jewels and picked up one of the busier resorts in New England with Stratton (they can have it IMO).
 

Jully

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While I would have to agree in some sense regarding Boyne and their East Coast presence, some might argue that Stowe for Vail and Stratton and Tremblant for KSL are better oriented for where the market is. Boyne is better suited for the Boston Market. Sugarloaf is not a day trip for 99% so they rely on vacationers and to some degree Sunday River is in the same boat with about 75% of their visitors. Loon (Boston Mountain) is the best positioned since it is drive-able for a day trip from the MA border and some might even argue from Boston (a bit long) but similar to day trips I have made to Stowe from Concord, NH.

Stowe is well positioned to reach several markets (Montreal, NY, Boston) and they have a great town near by as well as Burlington not that far away. Stowe is about equidistant from Boston as Sunday River - I probably would choose Stowe.

Stratton is very well positioned for the NY Market and like Stowe pretty good for the Boston market. Temblant is very well positioned for the Montreal market but they get visitors from all over and they to have a fantastic town at the base - probably the best out of all the resorts mentioned.

While Boyne my have one great resort with Sugarloaf and two decent resorts with Sunday River and Loon, Vail got one of New England's crown jewels and I bet they are not done yet. KSL well they got one of Quebec's crown jewels and picked up one of the busier resorts in New England with Stratton (they can have it IMO).

I'm assuming what Alex was saying was that he preferred Boyne's eastern offerings to KSL and Vail. I have to agree with him. Stowe certainly beats anything Boyne offers (or anyone else offers in NE for that matter) in a direct comparison, but the combo of SR and SL in Maine (fewer people) have it beat IMO. If it were JUST Sunday River or JUST SL, then that would be a different story for me at least. I agree with you about Stratton haha.

Overall I'd like to see these companies all pick up just one more resort somewhere in NE to make it something I can really get excited about (and be better than Peaks for east coast stuff). I do not think that is going to happen since all the money is focused out west.

Boyne and Powdr have a great thing going with their collaboration on MAX (and also still a solid east coast and decent west coast offering together), I wonder if they'll upgrade from the MAX to another type of combo pass offering next year.
 

dlague

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I'm assuming what Alex was saying was that he preferred Boyne's eastern offerings to KSL and Vail. I have to agree with him. Stowe certainly beats anything Boyne offers (or anyone else offers in NE for that matter) in a direct comparison, but the combo of SR and SL in Maine (fewer people) have it beat IMO. If it were JUST Sunday River or JUST SL, then that would be a different story for me at least. I agree with you about Stratton haha.

Overall I'd like to see these companies all pick up just one more resort somewhere in NE to make it something I can really get excited about (and be better than Peaks for east coast stuff). I do not think that is going to happen since all the money is focused out west.

Boyne and Powdr have a great thing going with their collaboration on MAX (and also still a solid east coast and decent west coast offering together), I wonder if they'll upgrade from the MAX to another type of combo pass offering next year.

The only problem I have with Sugarloaf is the non skiing part of it. There is not really much around there. At least Sunday River has Bethel but it is not a walking town like Stowe or Tremblant have.

While I am out west now, I too would like to see more eastern resorts get picked up to make things more compelling for the Northeast, but which resorts would make the most sense?
 

Jully

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The only problem I have with Sugarloaf is the non skiing part of it. There is not really much around there. At least Sunday River has Bethel but it is not a walking town like Stowe or Tremblant have.

While I am out west now, I too would like to see more eastern resorts get picked up to make things more compelling for the Northeast, but which resorts would make the most sense?

Oh certainly not. I'm actually not even a huge fan of Bethel, especially compared to what is in VT or North Conway.

It seems no western focused operator is super into the idea of running the smaller eastern hills (though we have a very small sample size of acquisitions to work with), so I think the slightly larger resorts are the ones that are going to be grabbed.

For KSL, I think a NH resort would be a nice fit if they want to expand their eastern offerings. I would also be excited to see that haha. They've tipped that they are interested resort development in a way that Vail is not, so I might think they are looking for resorts with potential that is relatively untapped (WV especially comes to mind). They're willing to go out and get a mountain they want though, they're definitely not looking for rock bottom prices.
 

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The only problem I have with Sugarloaf is the non skiing part of it. There is not really much around there. At least Sunday River has Bethel but it is not a walking town like Stowe or Tremblant have.

While I am out west now, I too would like to see more eastern resorts get picked up to make things more compelling for the Northeast, but which resorts would make the most sense?

While Stowe is a real town Tremblant is a fabricated town like Vail. Also Stowe maybe a "walking town" but it is pretty stretched out and although I don't go there often I still drive in between places. Walking towns are more like Breckenridge and Lake Placid.
 

dlague

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Oh certainly not. I'm actually not even a huge fan of Bethel, especially compared to what is in VT or North Conway.

It seems no western focused operator is super into the idea of running the smaller eastern hills (though we have a very small sample size of acquisitions to work with), so I think the slightly larger resorts are the ones that are going to be grabbed.

For KSL, I think a NH resort would be a nice fit if they want to expand their eastern offerings. I would also be excited to see that haha. They've tipped that they are interested resort development in a way that Vail is not, so I might think they are looking for resorts with potential that is relatively untapped (WV especially comes to mind). They're willing to go out and get a mountain they want though, they're definitely not looking for rock bottom prices.

Waterville Valley is kind of an odd duck. At 265 skiable acres it skis smaller as compared to Cannon which 282 just 17 acres more but skis much larger IMO. Also, all their lodging is down in the town several miles away. That being said, they market themselves well and certainly draw crowds - not Loon crazy busy but wait in lift lines busy. So probably the only viable option.

But considering NH, there are not many choices. Peaks owns or operates several, Boyne operates Loon, Cannon is state owned, Ragged is not busy enough, Gunstock is county owned etc.

In Vermont, there are the Jay Peak Burke combo but that has to wait until the whole mess is settled. Then there is Smuggs but that does not look like it will go anywhere but that would work well for Vail, beyond those the others are accounted for by PWDER, EPR Properties/Triple Peaks, Peak Resports, Vail, and KSL.

In Maine well the two best properties are taken by EPR Properties and operated by Boyne.
 

machski

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Waterville Valley is kind of an odd duck. At 265 skiable acres it skis smaller as compared to Cannon which 282 just 17 acres more but skis much larger IMO. Also, all their lodging is down in the town several miles away. That being said, they market themselves well and certainly draw crowds - not Loon crazy busy but wait in lift lines busy. So probably the only viable option.

But considering NH, there are not many choices. Peaks owns or operates several, Boyne operates Loon, Cannon is state owned, Ragged is not busy enough, Gunstock is county owned etc.

In Vermont, there are the Jay Peak Burke combo but that has to wait until the whole mess is settled. Then there is Smuggs but that does not look like it will go anywhere but that would work well for Vail, beyond those the others are accounted for by PWDER, EPR Properties/Triple Peaks, Peak Resports, Vail, and KSL.

In Maine well the two best properties are taken by EPR Properties and operated by Boyne.
True on WV now, but with the Green peak expansion, the town link is now a logical next step. An operator with the pockets could completely transform Waterville in a year or 2. The big question there is, would it be too close to Boston? Given the lodging re-explosion in Lincoln, I'd say not. And if town is lift and ski linked, wow. If this were to happen before Balsams got started, might give them another brake light up if the far north.

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Jully

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Waterville Valley is kind of an odd duck. At 265 skiable acres it skis smaller as compared to Cannon which 282 just 17 acres more but skis much larger IMO. Also, all their lodging is down in the town several miles away. That being said, they market themselves well and certainly draw crowds - not Loon crazy busy but wait in lift lines busy. So probably the only viable option.

But considering NH, there are not many choices. Peaks owns or operates several, Boyne operates Loon, Cannon is state owned, Ragged is not busy enough, Gunstock is county owned etc.

In Vermont, there are the Jay Peak Burke combo but that has to wait until the whole mess is settled.

True on WV now, but with the Green peak expansion, the town link is now a logical next step. An operator with the pockets could completely transform Waterville in a year or 2. The big question there is, would it be too close to Boston? Given the lodging re-explosion in Lincoln, I'd say not. And if town is lift and ski linked, wow. If this were to happen before Balsams got started, might give them another brake light up if the far north.

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I agree WV now is certainly nothing desirable, but there is a ton of potential there. The town needs a bit of revitalization, and the ski area some expansion to make it ski a little bigger, but with that, it'd be a really good competitor to Loon again IMO. KSL talks about expansion at DV with real estate development, so if they're interested back east, WV has some significant real estate possibilities with the village gondola project. I agree with Mach, I don't think real estate will be an issue because it is TOO close to Boston.

Ragged also has big real estate plans and the new ownership is making it more busy, but it will never be a significant competitor and I'd be shocked if a big western company had any interest in a 1200 vertical bump in Danbury.

I don't think Jay/Burke would be of any interest to KSL because it would just cannibalize their Tremblant market. I personally (significant armchair quarterbacking here) think there is more to be gained further south in NH or So. Vt.
 

Jully

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As far as JayPeak/Burke, I'm not sure I would call that cannibalizing, more just gaining market share.

Fair point, but how much market share is there to gain from Montreal with Tremblant already there versus somewhere farther south closer to Boston or NYC?
 

mbedle

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Fair point, but how much market share is there to gain from Montreal with Tremblant already there versus somewhere farther south closer to Boston or NYC?

I guess the question is do they actually need to gain market share or just maintain market share and increase revenue via raising prices. I think this situation is similar to Boyne owning Sunday River, Sugarloaf and Loon.
 

Jully

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I guess the question is do they actually need to gain market share or just maintain market share and increase revenue via raising prices. I think this situation is similar to Boyne owning Sunday River, Sugarloaf and Loon.

True! They really could get a stranglehold on the bigger resort Montreal market with a Jay/Burke purchase. Obviously many Eastern Township areas are independent.
 

machski

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True! They really could get a stranglehold on the bigger resort Montreal market with a Jay/Burke purchase. Obviously many Eastern Township areas are independent.
Plus, linked to a multi area pass Nationwide would likely increase traffic to Jay/Burke from the South as well for at least weekend stays I bet.

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