Epic Pass just got more Epic - Page 16

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  1. #151
    jackson hole grew so much over the last 2 decades. during my last visit, i checked the real estate listing and i was shocked how expensive the houses were.
    reading the comments on the bottom of that article, i noticed that the unhappy locals think that these ikon pass holders have access to their mountain for free. i have an ikon pass. i don't think each day i visit is free. yes, i bought cheap lift tickets, but not free.
    this is an industry trend. they can't really do anything about it. with increased skier days, the resort revenues go up. it is a simple economics.
    looks like the resort has some work to do if the visitors are saying they won't come back.
    gladerider

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by gladerider View Post
    jackson hole grew so much over the last 2 decades. during my last visit, i checked the real estate listing and i was shocked how expensive the houses were.
    reading the comments on the bottom of that article, i noticed that the unhappy locals think that these ikon pass holders have access to their mountain for free. i have an ikon pass. i don't think each day i visit is free. yes, i bought cheap lift tickets, but not free.
    this is an industry trend. they can't really do anything about it. with increased skier days, the resort revenues go up. it is a simple economics.
    looks like the resort has some work to do if the visitors are saying they won't come back.
    Hadn't looked at the comments. Some are hilarious. They're talking about "free" days everywhere on the pass... that is what the pass is - a bunch of days at a bunch of places.

    At its core it is an interesting concept though - maybe in future years Jackson may demand fewer days on Ikon. Who knows if 4 v. 7 days actually would decrease the number of people there on Ikon. I feel like the average ski vacation does not include more than 4 days of skiing.

  3. #153
    thetrailboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gladerider View Post
    reading the comments on the bottom of that article, i noticed that the unhappy locals think that these ikon pass holders have access to their mountain for free. i have an ikon pass. i don't think each day i visit is free. yes, i bought cheap lift tickets, but not free.
    this is an industry trend. they can't really do anything about it. with increased skier days, the resort revenues go up. it is a simple economics.
    Well, not necessarily. I doubt that the "revenue share" is very significant for the partner resorts. A lot of the non-Alterra resorts are banking on increased traffic meaning more food and beverage revenue, lodging revenue, or other services to make up for the fact that Ikon or Epic Passholders aren't paying full window rate. And at least from what I have seen and heard from staff, these pass visitors aren't buying food or lodging to make up for the discount. So revenues are only up slightly while traffic is up. Plus, a lot of these deals are reciprocal deals...so as a Snowbird passholder I get X free days at Solitude or wherever. So Snowbird uses that to market to me and to get me to buy a Snowbird pass. This is another reason why Ikon, for example, doesn't have to pay Snowbird a lot for a passholder to ski for a day.

    The bigger issue is that folks like me pay full freight for a resort pass and are now getting less of a quality experience because the place is getting flooded by people skiing their "free days" on a discounted pass at another resort. So what is starting to happen at places like A-Basin, Jackson Hole, and Alta-Bird is that the resort passholders are getting upset at the resort for the wheeling and dealing. The point that the anger is displaced onto the Ikon/Epic Passholders is accurate. The real problem is the resort management for not getting the balance right.

    And on another note the sense of entitlement from the "local" Jackson Hole skiers is simply breathtaking.
    Live, Ski, or Die!


  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss View Post
    Well, not necessarily. I doubt that the "revenue share" is very significant for the partner resorts. A lot of the non-Alterra resorts are banking on increased traffic meaning more food and beverage revenue, lodging revenue, or other services to make up for the fact that Ikon or Epic Passholders aren't paying full window rate. And at least from what I have seen and heard from staff, these pass visitors aren't buying food or lodging to make up for the discount. So revenues are only up slightly while traffic is up. Plus, a lot of these deals are reciprocal deals...so as a Snowbird passholder I get X free days at Solitude or wherever. So Snowbird uses that to market to me and to get me to buy a Snowbird pass. This is another reason why Ikon, for example, doesn't have to pay Snowbird a lot for a passholder to ski for a day.

    The bigger issue is that folks like me pay full freight for a resort pass and are now getting less of a quality experience because the place is getting flooded by people skiing their "free days" on a discounted pass at another resort. So what is starting to happen at places like A-Basin, Jackson Hole, and Alta-Bird is that the resort passholders are getting upset at the resort for the wheeling and dealing. The point that the anger is displaced onto the Ikon/Epic Passholders is accurate. The real problem is the resort management for not getting the balance right.

    And on another note the sense of entitlement from the "local" Jackson Hole skiers is simply breathtaking.
    are you saying that the resort revenues are not up due to increased traffic? i don't buy that. i don't have any facts and it is purely an assumption of mine, but increased traffic has to have a net positive impact on the revenue and i am not talking about revenue sharing.
    i don't see how a skier visiting a resort cannot spend any money. i would think that it is the pass holders who do not spend any money on the resort other than their passes.

    time will tell. where i come from, it's all about the $. if JHMR comes off of the ikon in the next few years, that would be because they are not seeing the net positive impact on their bottom line. if they stay, they are experiencing the net positive impact. time will tell.

    regarding the sense of entitlement you mentioned. yes. there certainly is a vibe of exclusivity. with the real estate so highly priced, i don't know where all the workers live. i bet they come from far away each day or cram into places.
    gladerider

  5. #155
    thetrailboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gladerider View Post
    are you saying that the resort revenues are not up due to increased traffic? i don't buy that. i don't have any facts and it is purely an assumption of mine, but increased traffic has to have a net positive impact on the revenue and i am not talking about revenue sharing.
    Sure, revenue is up, but not as much as you think. For example, if you have 50 more skiers coming, but they are not buying any food, beverages, or lessons, then you have 50 more bodies on the slopes, but not necessarily the full amount of revenue potential that you planned. Resorts actually use a formula based on their skier days to project how much revenue they will make. So in this case, if I am a manager, I am banking on these folks to enjoy their "free day" but then to buy a couple beers or to grab some souvenirs, or in other words to generate me more money on this skier day to recoup my loss on not getting the rack rate on the skier or rider. And, anectdotally at least to this point, it sounds as if this "other" revenue is not happening. And the question is if the ski area is losing business from someone who either would buy a season pass or pay full freight but now won't because the lines are too long or the parking lot is too full and they drive on to the next place.

    So sure, for example if Alterra is paying you $30 for the day, you have $1,500 more in revenue. But honestly you want those 50 people to buy other things to make more money. The issue is if it is worth the crowding, wear and tear, increased demands on infrastructure to bring in that minimal amount of money. Some are now saying it is not. It will be interesting to see if any resorts do change the Ikon/Epic reciprocal deals.
    Last edited by thetrailboss; Feb 21, 2019 at 3:48 PM.
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  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss View Post
    Well, not necessarily. I doubt that the "revenue share" is very significant for the partner resorts. A lot of the non-Alterra resorts are banking on increased traffic meaning more food and beverage revenue, lodging revenue, or other services to make up for the fact that Ikon or Epic Passholders aren't paying full window rate. And at least from what I have seen and heard from staff, these pass visitors aren't buying food or lodging to make up for the discount. So revenues are only up slightly while traffic is up. Plus, a lot of these deals are reciprocal deals...so as a Snowbird passholder I get X free days at Solitude or wherever. So Snowbird uses that to market to me and to get me to buy a Snowbird pass. This is another reason why Ikon, for example, doesn't have to pay Snowbird a lot for a passholder to ski for a day.

    The bigger issue is that folks like me pay full freight for a resort pass and are now getting less of a quality experience because the place is getting flooded by people skiing their "free days" on a discounted pass at another resort. So what is starting to happen at places like A-Basin, Jackson Hole, and Alta-Bird is that the resort passholders are getting upset at the resort for the wheeling and dealing. The point that the anger is displaced onto the Ikon/Epic Passholders is accurate. The real problem is the resort management for not getting the balance right.

    And on another note the sense of entitlement from the "local" Jackson Hole skiers is simply breathtaking.
    Allegedly Jackson gets 80-82 bucks a day. AND Vail offered more to be on Epic but the owners hate Vail so told them to pound sand.

    Retail and F&B are down revenue wise despite the increase in visits. Exactly how much my source would not say. The juice is not worth the squeeze when you give up the customer that will spend 5k on a new ski kit when they arrive and then literally leave it in their Four Seasons room when they depart in trade for a couple brown bag 25 year old bros from Colorado that stay in the Motel 6. 80% of the skier visits is better if they spend buku bucks.

    Call it entitlement, but when you go from being the premier resort in the country to taking anyone and their mother who shows up is going to change the locals opinion. We had a great thing here, and now it is changing. No one likes it when things change from great to _________. That being said, there are some dudes who do take a bit to far. It is just skiing and Jackson's terrain hasn't changed. It is still rad, just different.

    I got yelled at last weekend by a 60 year old lady for skiing fast 50 yards away from her. People ski fast in Jackson? Who'd a thunk that? We had a great system for lift mazes, now its just a bunch of ikoners cutting lines. This never happened before.

    We are also in a major housing crunch and there is no staff to handle this increase in people. The product has suffered as a result. No one likes this.

    I suspect the Ikon is going to get more expensive for less days to try and even this stuff out.
    Last edited by AdironRider; Feb 21, 2019 at 4:10 PM.
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  7. #157
    thetrailboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Retail and F&B are down revenue wise despite the increase in visits. Exactly how much my source would not say. The juice is not worth the squeeze when you give up the customer that will spend 5k on a new ski kit when they arrive and then literally leave it in their Four Seasons room when they depart in trade for a couple brown bag 25 year old bros from Colorado that stay in the Motel 6. 80% of the skier visits is better if they spend buku bucks.
    Bingo.
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  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Allegedly Jackson gets 80-82 bucks a day.
    Do you think that is a reliable number? If one person uses all 7 of their JH days, that would nearly eat up the price of the Ikon pass and not leave much for Alterra themselves (or for any other resorts that Ikon days are used at).

    I suspect the Ikon is going to get more expensive for less days to try and even this stuff out.
    I could definitely see the structure changing next year. This was the first year so a lot to learn on how to do it right.

  9. #159
    time will tell
    gladerider

  10. #160
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