Vail Purchases Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass

abc · Jun 4, 2018

slatham said:
Personally I could see this fracturing my guys ski group, where a handful of guys are Stowe regulars and hence always want to head out West to a Vail resort. Not sure I am up to staying "Epic" when I don't have the pass.

Yep, that's a real issue. Gone are the days when friends talk about where to go and why they like it. There's also some freshness with going to different mountains. Nice to do with a group for some social time together, even if the skiing is only ok.

With these passes, I miss skiing with some of my friends because we have different passes. I rotate my pass purchases. In the mean time, I will go to an independent mountain. But I really resist going to a Vail resort on years when I don't have their pass. Why pay high price to ski there when I'll be skiing it "for free" next year or two?

MG Skier · Jun 4, 2018

slatham said:
Consumer: Cheaper pass costs and increased ski areas to choose from on one pass is a positive. But do other costs increase (food, bev, lessons, etc)? What does this do to weekend/holiday crowds (key worry of my Stowe friends). Does monopoly power eventually result in increase costs?

And what about the non-pass holder? Does this consolidation effectively remove a large selection of areas from consideration because day ticket prices are so high? And I would expect less package deals and other incentives for the non-pass skier, especially if crowding does become an issue.

Operations: How does this change the operations and character of the mountain? Does it become homogenized? Does the ski season get truncated (Stowe closed April 15th at 100%).

Personnel: Do the new owners remove the long time local employees with people from "corporate". I have not heard corroboration but heard rumors Vail fired several long time Stowe employees this spring. How does this change the operations and character of the mountain?

Local business: Assuming Vail doesn't start building lodging (Note that lodging at Stowe was NOT part of the purchase) I would think increased skier visits would help the local business.

Smaller areas. They could be the losers. Why ski an independent mountain, even if reasonably priced, if you can ski several areas effectively for free (or no incremental cost). Sure, many Epic/Ikon pass holders will surely not stick 100% to the pass areas, but its the trend away from independent areas and toward the "pass" areas that at the margin will hurt.

Personally I could see this fracturing my guys ski group, where a handful of guys are Stowe regulars and hence always want to head out West to a Vail resort. Not sure I am up to staying "Epic" when I don't have the pass.

Time will tell. All I know is I'm staying with the iconic Magic mountain and their epic skiing........

+1 Magic!

thetrailboss · Jun 4, 2018

As to the ops question: hell yes they will open later and close earlier. It is about standardization and cutting costs. Although none of those resorts, historically, were really late closers.

mbedle · Jun 4, 2018

Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.

speden · Jun 4, 2018

thetrailboss said:
... They are also getting three resorts for the price of two. Sunapee is a lease. Okemo and Sunapee are established brands in the Boston market. Now a Bostonian can have a pass that is good for Okemo, Sunapee, and Stowe. That is a good option.

As a Bostonian I have to say Okemo and Sunapee are very unappealing options. Okemo is hard to get to from Boston and I'd rather go to Killington for better skiing at a similar driving time. Sunapee is close to Boston, but it's super crowded and located in the dreaded southern NH freeze/thaw zone. I'd rather go to Wawa or further north. I like Stowe, but it's a tough day trip from Boston. I think Vermont resorts are more attractive to NY skiers than Boston skiers.

If the market is going to consolidate to Vail and Alterra, I hope Alterra will go after the Boston market. They partnered with Killington, Sugarbush, and the Boyne resorts, which is a more Boston friendly selection than what Vail is doing. Alterra should try to connect with Wawa to solidify their Boston position.

I'm not too worried about monopolies in the ski business yet. The big passes are a good deal and it makes sense for the risk of bad snowfall to be spread across wide geographic areas. The big companies will also have a lot of clout to buy lifts and snow making equipment at lower prices. I'm more worried about consolidation in the tech industry with moves like Microsoft buying Github today. That kind of stuff is scary.

abc · Jun 4, 2018

I'm more worried about consolidation in the tech industry with moves like Microsoft buying Github today. That kind of stuff is scary.

Man! You positively ruin my day. I was in such good mood until I read this line!

thetrailboss · Jun 4, 2018

speden said:
As a Bostonian I have to say Okemo and Sunapee are very unappealing options. Okemo is hard to get to from Boston and I'd rather go to Killington for better skiing at a similar driving time. Sunapee is close to Boston, but it's super crowded and located in the dreaded southern NH freeze/thaw zone. I'd rather go to Wawa or further north. I like Stowe, but it's a tough day trip from Boston. I think Vermont resorts are more attractive to NY skiers than Boston skiers.

If the market is going to consolidate to Vail and Alterra, I hope Alterra will go after the Boston market. They partnered with Killington, Sugarbush, and the Boyne resorts, which is a more Boston friendly selection than what Vail is doing. Alterra should try to connect with Wawa to solidify their Boston position.

I'm not too worried about monopolies in the ski business yet. The big passes are a good deal and it makes sense for the risk of bad snowfall to be spread across wide geographic areas. The big companies will also have a lot of clout to buy lifts and snow making equipment at lower prices. I'm more worried about consolidation in the tech industry with moves like Microsoft buying Github today. That kind of stuff is scary.

Obviously those are not perfect resorts for everyone, but my point is that for the average Boston skier/rider those are good choices.

machski · Jun 4, 2018

Interesting move here. Could be good for Sunapee, I would imagine Vail will want to accelerate all the approved upgrades/expansion. Being it is owned by state of NH, wonder if they approve or have any veto in the sale of the lease?
As to CB, that is an interesting add giving Vail some of the most serious terrain out there which they were not know for. It also makes me wonder with the teens of thousands of acres they own in CO, will this prompt any anti-trust concerns? They are growing to the size in that region that ASC once did in New England (when they bought SKI). They were forced to divest some of their resorts at the time due to anti trust concerns.

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slatham · Jun 4, 2018

machski said:
Interesting move here. Could be good for Sunapee, I would imagine Vail will want to accelerate all the approved upgrades/expansion. Being it is owned by state of NH, wonder if they approve or have any veto in the sale of the lease?
As to CB, that is an interesting add giving Vail some of the most serious terrain out there which they were not know for. It also makes me wonder with the teens of thousands of acres they own in CO, will this prompt any anti-trust concerns? They are growing to the size in that region that ASC once did in New England (when they bought SKI). They were forced to divest some of their resorts at the time due to anti trust concerns.

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When Vail bought Breck and Keystone (which came with A-Basin) they were forced on antitrust grounds to sell A-Basin. I presume they cleared the antitrust hurdle before closing this deal but that might not be the case. It also may not be an issue given how removed CB is from the other Vail resorts in CO.

thetrailboss · Jun 4, 2018

slatham said:
When Vail bought Breck and Keystone (which came with A-Basin) they were forced on antitrust grounds to sell A-Basin. I presume they cleared the antitrust hurdle before closing this deal but that might not be the case. It also may not be an issue given how removed CB is from the other Vail resorts in CO.

The ultimate issue will be their share of the market....or the number of skier days they will control in Colorado.

slatham · Jun 4, 2018

mbedle said:
Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.

No, Sunday April 15th was last day. And they had cut back ops to just Forerunner Quad the week before. Tons of snow.

BenedictGomez · Jun 4, 2018

cdskier said:
I think we need to see if the Stowe earlier than normal closing was an aberration or a trend. Always possible it was just a weird one off timing issue with the way the dates/weekends/calendar fell this year.

Trend.

Look at their entire portfolio, it's the norm, not an aberration.

thetrailboss · Jun 4, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
Trend.

Look at their entire portfolio, it's the norm, not an aberration.

Exactly. Cut costs. PCMR now opens right before Thanksgiving and closes in mid-April. They used to go another week or two in the spring for the locals. Not anymore.

sull1102 · Jun 4, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
If you're going to have a such a deep animus & jealousy for the rich, you should at least know your target.

Rich people do not drive Chevy Suburbans.

I dont know about "most", perhaps that's true, but Boston is a big town and I can tell you there are tons of Bostonians who ski Stowe each weekend. Loads of them.

Oh totally agree there's a portion, but compare those numbers to a Loon/Cranmore, North Conway, even Sunday River and it isn't even close really. Get out to 495 and northwest the numbers start to change because you are talking about an hour ride time difference.

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JimG. · Jun 4, 2018

Liking my decision more and more to go with Killington/Pico and NYS 3 in 1 for next season. I think I need to buy my K pass soon 6/14 is the deadline for low early price I believe.

I am so totally uninterested in these East/West conglomerate ski passes. Cheap to buy and expensive to implement and use.

drjeff · Jun 4, 2018

BenedictGomez said:
If you're going to have a such a deep animus & jealousy for the rich, you should at least know your target.

Rich people do not drive Chevy Suburbans.

I dont know about "most", perhaps that's true, but Boston is a big town and I can tell you there are tons of Bostonians who ski Stowe each weekend. Loads of them.

I hate to break it to you BG, but PLENTY of "rich" people drive Suburban's and/or full sized Escalades. Here's why.... Rich people often have kids. And often 2,3, or 4+ kids. Kids take up space, and especially when it comes to sports, have stuff, which also takes up space.

Suburban's and Escalades have a ton of room behind the 3rd row of seats. Far more than a Cayenne has (my wife drives an Audi Q7 which is the same platform as the Cayenne is on, and I can 100% tell you that when the 3rd row of seats is in use, there's not much more room for more than 3 or 4 medium sized boot bags behind the 3rd row) Suburban's and Escalades are superior size wise for hauling a bunch of gear, or in non ski season say a good chunk of a kids soccer or lacrosse or softball team around one's home town.

Plus, if you haven't been in one recently, they're nicely appointed. And for a "rich" person often a 3rd or maybe 4th car

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deadheadskier · Jun 4, 2018

sull1102 said:
Oh totally agree there's a portion, but compare those numbers to a Loon/Cranmore, North Conway, even Sunday River and it isn't even close really. Get out to 495 and northwest the numbers start to change because you are talking about an hour ride time difference.

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Well, you obviously are going to have a higher percentage of Mass plates in NH and especially ME. Those locations are just more difficult to get to from CT, NY, NJ, PQ than Stowe. That doesn't mean a huge number of people from Mass don't drive to Stowe every weekend. I lived in Stowe for many years working in bars. If you were to ask me where the highest percentage of visitors came from, it would be Mass.

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cdskier · Jun 4, 2018

slatham said:
No, Sunday April 15th was last day. And they had cut back ops to just Forerunner Quad the week before. Tons of snow.

I think you misread what he said. mbedle was referring to the plans for this coming season, not this past season.

BenedictGomez said:
Trend.

Look at their entire portfolio, it's the norm, not an aberration.

And yet if what mbedle said is true, they're already planning on being open until April 21 next year which is right in line with their normal historical closing date. You can't say something is a trend at a particular resort if you have one year to base that on.

mbedle said:
Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.

Note - I'm not defending Vail as I don't like the idea of mega-mergers, but I also like to use actual facts instead of rumors and theories based on other things Vail might have done elsewhere.

sull1102 · Jun 4, 2018

deadheadskier said:
Well, you obviously are going to have a higher percentage of Mass plates in NH and especially ME. Those locations are just more difficult to get to from CT, NY, NJ, PQ than Stowe. That doesn't mean a huge number of people from Mass don't drive to Stowe every weekend. I lived in Stowe for many years working in bars. If you were to ask me where the highest percentage of visitors came from, it would be Mass.

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Mass and Boston are two very different things, otherwise you stated my very point perfectly. The drive to Stowe is much more difficult than many other options. Boston as a city has good options 90 minutes away and very very good options under 3 hours away. Stowe you are pushing over 4 hours, not many are doing that every weekend. Look at season passes, people that own condos and townhouses etc etc, there are FAR more CT and NY folks than MA overall and Eastern MA even more so.

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deadheadskier · Jun 4, 2018

Have you ever lived in Stowe? When people say Boston these days, they basically mean from 495 and in. There are great deal of people from the Boston area with second homes in Stowe. That was my experience living and working there. More than places like NY and CT. Why? Look at your own argument. Those folks have to drive by a ton of southern and central VT ski areas to get to Stowe.

You can even look at this forum for a small sample size of that truth. Most from NY, NJ, CT are regulars at mountains from SB south. Most of the Stowe skiers? Metro Boston.

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