Will driverless cars help remote resorts? - Page 16

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  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by mister moose View Post
    Not quite.

    Both accidents are related to cockpit confusion on what the automated system was doing, coupled with sensor failure. Boeing took it further with a stronger mandatory stall response.

    With Air France, the FO's low experience, and almost zero real world non-automated experience hindered his recognition and recovery from a stall. There was no crew coordination. No one said "My Airplane", which essentially means get your effing hands off the joystick. And as the Vanity Fair article points out if you read far enough, the inherent danger of non replicated movements for both joysticks, ie they could each provide differing inputs, was an accident waiting to happen. I fault the FO for 1) over controlling, a sure sign of low experience, 2) not discussing his control inputs, 3) Not understanding the correct assertions of the NFP FO #2, and lack of assimilation of data through other instruments. I didn't see it in the article, but those sensors are always heated, and I didn't see any discussion of whether the heat was turned on. Sorta important.

    This isn't garden variety training "Now we're going to do a stall demonstration" stall recovery. It's in the weeds, confused cockpit, defective instrument, full IFR stall recovery. Few of you understand the difference, but it's always amazing how many accidents result from ignoring the first rule of aviation: Fly the damn airplane. 3 thousand hours of autopilot operation does not get you the needed experience to hand fly the damn airplane, and that was the problem on Air France. The FO simply couldn't fly a partial panel, and he couldn't fly without over controlling. In fact, there was no real problem at all until the FO pitched the nose up for no good reason. In addition to all the other snowball factors.

    Automation is great, but you still need solid basic aviation skills and a solid background in weather, icing, turbulence, manual instrument flying, instrument failure, engine failure, fire, the list goes on... because stuff breaks. Because some mechanic, refueler, baggage loader or avionics technician didn't leave things quite right. In the recent 737 crash, the ability and training to turn off the defective autopilot and fly the damn airplane would have saved that flight.

    Turns out there is such a thing as too much automation, (Together with a false sense of security and woeful lack of needed experience) and it's a real shame so many had to die to make that point.
    We are saying the same thing.
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  2. #152
    Driverless cars are going to drive at or below the speed limit. I don't know about you guys, but that drives me crazy on some roads. 25mph is painful. The vast majority of the US drives at +5 to +12, and that is going to cause major rebellion when all the driverless cars are now slow-clogging the roads. Will the trial lawyers allow automated cars to drive at the maximum speed allowed? Everyone is a grandma driver all of a sudden.

    As for airplanes, it's technically possible now if everyone else stays out of the way, but so far we just don't do it.

    Who will take over when something breaks?
    Who will do the pre-flight inspection?
    Who will be responsible for the flight, compute the take-off weight and CG point, and check the runway charts?
    Who will check the weather, the forecasts, decide on an alternate airport, and evaluate the fuel needed?
    Who will talk to ATC?
    Who will sign off the MEL list? (Minimum equipment list) That's a list of all the stuff that doesn't work on an airplane, but still be legal to fly. That's right folks, everyday hundreds, thousands of flights take off with stuff broken, because, news flash, stuff breaks in airplanes. There's a huge amount of mechanical gadgets that endure a tough environment and break. Enough stuff breaks and can't get fixed soon enough that pilots carry around lists of stuff that is broken. So realize that stuff breaks on a regular basis, and it's because someone is there to deal with it that 99% of the time you never hear about it.

    How is a computer going to accept a visual clearance behind a visually identified 2nd aircraft?
    How is a computer going to make the decision to go around when a last minute runway incursion happens?
    How is a computer going to deal with poor signal strength and stepped on transmissions from ATC?
    How is a computer going to deal with an un-programmed emergency, a la Scully? Or United 232, that required several crew members to control what was left of the airplane?

    Why do we not have driverless trains yet? They even have their own unshared road, they don't have to steer, and they run on a schedule. (Yeah, there's a few driverless self contained shuttle type trains, for those of you that like to niggle and point out technical flaws in any statement, so lets just get that out of the way)

    It seems to me that automation shines when you have repetitious tasks with low risk if something fails. In an aluminum beer can rocketing through -20F air so thin you'll die of hypoxia, sitting on wings full of jet fuel at 600mph, it might be nice to have someone up front checking on things. Because while the overall sequence in a flight is repetitious, the real world details never are. Because weather surprises you. Because human error is everywhere around you, in ATC, in the cockpit, in the dispatch office, in the control tower, in the cabin, and in the maintenance shop. Because stuff breaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by abc View Post
    Every time I book a flight involving a regional operator, I cringe. Knowing how poorly trained SOME of those pilots are, I wish they make smart computer faster, so that pilotless planes will become a reality.
    Actually, while the average experience level is lower in regionals*, the importance of the pilot is greater. The workload is higher with more take-offs and landings per day. They fly lower longer, which means they deal with bad weather far more. The aircraft has more critical performance, meaning the weight of 1 passenger and CG matters far more, and performance with an engine failure is (generally) lower, more difficult to deal with. Mainline aircraft are actually easier to fly, but with (usually) more systems to manage and more people on board to be responsible for.

    *Because the pay is less. If pay was detached from aircraft size, that situation would change.
    Last edited by mister moose; Apr 5, 2019 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by speden View Post
    The diehards can become driving hobbyists, just like audioholics still listening to vinyl records. As long as the hobbyists don't cause too many accidents in their dangerous manual drive mode, it will be a long time before they are completely banned. If they are eventually banned, it would probably happen first in the big cities.
    Totally.

    A high proportion of air collisions are from small planes flown by hobbyists. Or when small planes without transponder hitting big planes and bringing them down. But small planes are still allowed in most sky except the most congested airports.

    Human driven cars will be on the road for a very long time. But as time goes by, it will be mostly be for hobbyists. Parts (steering wheels, brake pedals etc) will be harder and harder to come by for pre-computerized cars, just like vinyl record players. All manufacturers will probably only make a few performance models for the hobbyists.

    But that's still a long way off. Computer driven cars aren't all that great yet, even in the mundane street driving task in good weather. It'll be a while before they can handle snow and ice as well (or as poorly) as the average drivers.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    We are saying the same thing.
    The problem was way more than just identifying a stall. It was the inability to fly a partial panel. It was the automation design team thought-could-never-happen issue of 2 pilots on the controls (shouldn't happen, but did) moving them in opposite direction (shouldn't happen, but did) It was lots of other contributing details, which was why I took the time to write a page instead of a sentence.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by abc View Post
    Totally.

    A high proportion of air collisions are from small planes flown by hobbyists. Or when small planes without transponder hitting big planes and bringing them down. But small planes are still allowed in most sky except the most congested airports.
    Source? None of this fits the data I've seen. And as far as I know you can still land any properly equipped civilian aircraft at any civilian airport.

  6. #156
    bigbog's Avatar
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    Autos:
    Think they may appear for those grandmas, grandpas and eccentrics who challenge the minimums anyways and who, on occasion, apply the gas pedal by mistake...ending in tragic accidents. More on the Testing end should be happenning..imho. The issues are parking....nobody wants to design upwards = we're still in the Ponderosa era where RE wants as many units as physically possible developed = so ugly.

    Aircraft:
    Learned, tested up, flew long before I could drive = prehistoric times. I kind of cringe when the limited, required number of hours, due to automated systems, are mentioned now & then via media...usually in cases of company pressure to get to market...even before the flight schools, much less airlines(ie pilots/near future pilots) get adequate info on the systems...so nobody really has any idea of what they're flying. These days the excrement is covered up for profit...always seem to learn of these conditions AFTER crashes....not cool.

    Last edited by bigbog; Apr 5, 2019 at 9:47 AM.
    SteveD

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by mister moose View Post
    The problem was way more than just identifying a stall. It was the inability to fly a partial panel. It was the automation design team thought-could-never-happen issue of 2 pilots on the controls (shouldn't happen, but did) moving them in opposite direction (shouldn't happen, but did) It was lots of other contributing details, which was why I took the time to write a page instead of a sentence.
    Actually that scenario happened some time ago and should have some type of warning system built in !!!! https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ir-990/302332/
    "Make Greenland Green again"

  8. #158
    bigbog's Avatar
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    Good stuff mister moose....
    SteveD

  9. #159
    JimG.'s Avatar
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    This topic admittedly makes me lose my mind.

    Glad to see the discourse continues. I don't get avocado toast either.

  10. #160
    JimG.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abc View Post
    Driverless cars will coexist with drivable cars.

    Are you also against motorcycles and buses? Those are nothing like cars, but you’re obligated to share the road with them. God forbid you have bicycles to deal with. Aren’t you afraid you’ll be forced not to drive but ride a bicycle or motorcycle just because someone dare to invent those? (like they dare to even THINK about inventing driverless cars!)

    My “discomfort” isn’t so much caused by your distaste of driverless cars, it’s your distaste of anything other except cars. Did you not profess your distaste of anything YOU don’t personally drive?
    Hey I'm good with whatever you want to call your wheels be it a bike, motorcycle, roller skates, scooter, or unicycle. Or a driverless car or a flying car for that matter.

    Just don't try to take the steering wheel out of my hands, that's all.

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