Will driverless cars help remote resorts? - Page 15

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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimG. View Post
    To go back to the example of driving instead of flying, "better outcome on average" doesn't work for me personally but you agree that drivers like me should be able to override computer automation. Been driving 45 years with zero accidents. Mostly because I'm attentive and have been able to take corrective action when needed. So to me it would be a big step down in outcomes and this is usually the case when you dumb things down to account for the below average participants. I don't want to be treated that way. Besides, I also enjoy driving so why should I give that enjoyment up because other drivers don't like driving or suck at it?

    I do agree with what you have written in general.
    JimG, your post Iím afraid shows a huge and grave misunderstanding of automation.

    You will always be able to drive. Driverless cars however, will allow those who donít feel like driving to not drive!

    You fear of not being allowed to drive is irrational. The rest of your argument are wrong largely because you started with the wrong assumption.

    That said, over-automation is a legitimate concern, as illustrated in the airplane designs. On the other hand, we had already accepted quite a lot of automotion in cars. We even took them for granted so much most people canít name some of those automated functions of the cars! Iíll start the list with the obvious: auto-transmission and anti-lock brakes, please add to the list...

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Smellytele View Post
    How do the experienced pilots get their experience?
    In the past, most came from the military. That has slowed, and at the same time (after along period of oversupply) the demand for pilots is increasing. Civil experience comes from a wide arena; flight instructing, banner towing, charter flying, freight, commuters.

    Just like skiing, New England is a great training ground. We have frequent IFR, icing, fog, some short runways, frequent crosswinds, lots of obstructions and special procedures, and one of the most crowded and pressure cooker environments there is in NYC airspace. If you learned in sunny Florida (Home to several flight academies) you are lacking in all that. If you believe some of the forecasts I've read, we're headed for a pilot shortage. A recession will change that in a hurry.

    I believe this is a true story from decades ago -

    A Pan Am 707 landed a little hot and had brake trouble, ended up off the end of the runway in the over-run with some scratches and little else, but still needed a tow. The Captain got on the intercom and said, "Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for flying with Pan Am, the world's most experienced airline, and well, we just had another damn experience."

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by abc View Post
    JimG, your post Iím afraid shows a huge and grave misunderstanding of automation.

    You will always be able to drive. Driverless cars however, will allow those who donít feel like driving to not drive!

    You fear of not being allowed to drive is irrational. The rest of your argument are wrong largely because you started with the wrong assumption.

    That said, over-automation is a legitimate concern, as illustrated in the airplane designs. On the other hand, we had already accepted quite a lot of automotion in cars. We even took them for granted so much most people canít name some of those automated functions of the cars! Iíll start the list with the obvious: auto-transmission and anti-lock brakes, please add to the list...
    I drive a 6 speed. So to me an automatic transmission is over automation.

    It is a bit presumptive of you to assume I do not understand automation because I reject it. I am not discussing "automation", I am referring to autonomous driving where there is no human interaction and there is no option for humans to drive. That is the ultimate goal of this whole technology push for driving is it not? A moving box with no steering wheel or control inputs.

    My 2 oldest sons are engineers and they talk to me the same way, like I'm too stupid to understand modern tech.

  4. #144

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    That is the ultimate goal of this whole technology push for driving is it not?
    No, that is not.

    In that, you’re wrong.

    like I'm too stupid to understand modern tech.
    It’s not about your understanding (or the lack of) of technology. It’s you assumption of intent that isn’t there that’s bordering paranoia.
    Last edited by abc; Apr 4, 2019 at 8:11 PM.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by abc View Post
    No, that is not.

    In that, youíre wrong.


    Itís not about your understanding (or the lack of) of technology. Itís you assumption of intent that isnít there thatís bordering paranoia.
    Check the title of this thread: "Will DRIVERLESS cars help remote resorts?"

    Clearly the intent, according to the OP, is to produce cars that are DRIVERLESS.

    I have read articles postulating whether Uber and Lyft can survive long enough financially to produce DRIVERLESS cars. Clearly that is the goal.

    Maybe you need to look up the definition of "driverless" and "autonomous" before you accuse anyone of paranoia.

    I'm sorry if my distaste of that concept causes you discomfort; how dare I contest the ultimate societal wisdom of computer engineers. Sheesh!

  6. #146

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    Driverless cars will coexist with drivable cars.

    Are you also against motorcycles and buses? Those are nothing like cars, but you’re obligated to share the road with them. God forbid you have bicycles to deal with. Aren’t you afraid you’ll be forced not to drive but ride a bicycle or motorcycle just because someone dare to invent those? (like they dare to even THINK about inventing driverless cars!)

    My “discomfort” isn’t so much caused by your distaste of driverless cars, it’s your distaste of anything other except cars. Did you not profess your distaste of anything YOU don’t personally drive?
    Last edited by abc; Apr 4, 2019 at 9:04 PM.

  7. #147
    [QUOTE=abc;1021266]Driverless cars will coexist with drivable cars.

    /QUOTE]

    For a short time, not forever.

    Eventually the machine will prove to be more reliable and safer than human operation. At that point, control will be relinquished to the machine.

    I see this every single day professionally in critical care ICUs; Life or death healthcare environments. Every year, more and more control/trust is relinquished by clinicians to the machines keeping these folks alive.

    It will be no different in the automotive industry long term.


    Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

  8. #148
    Attitudes may differ based on a person's age. If you grew up in the pre internet/social media era, then driving a car represented freedom to get out of mom and dad's house and to socialize/show off with your friends, so cars were important. A lot of young people now don't really care that much about driving and just see it as transportation. They'll happily summon an uber when they need to go somewhere and wouldn't care if the uber had a human driver or a computer driver.

    I've also seen that cars are getting more generic. All the different brands are starting to look alike since the laws of physics dictate the most efficient design. That trend should accelerate as we transition to electric drivetrains. The diehards will hate electrics too and want their loud v8's and stick shifts, but the electrics will be much less expensive and almost maintenance free. When transportation becomes a cheap, generic commodity, many people won't even bother owning a car.

    The diehards can become driving hobbyists, just like audioholics still listening to vinyl records. As long as the hobbyists don't cause too many accidents in their dangerous manual drive mode, it will be a long time before they are completely banned. If they are eventually banned, it would probably happen first in the big cities.

  9. #149
    I can see the 737 analogy, but I'm not sure it's pertinent. First and foremost, people died; I don't want to gloss over that at all. I can't even imagine all the families impacted.

    With the 737, it's a statistically small sample set. I'm sure since this thread was bumped the number of people who died in the 373 incidents was far eclipsed by motor vehicle crashes...caused by humans.



    I don't have the stats, but flying is safer than driving statistically speaking. And from what I know, it's a heavily automated system. Yes, there are still pilots there to take over if needed.

    We can pound on the keyboard and argue the merits of self driving cars. I feel that it's coming. I don't have exact dates, but I'm sure at some point in my life, we'll see vehicles driving themselves.
    SoVT

  10. #150
    Relative to the Boeing crashes, this is rather informative (albeit based in part on preliminary findings):

    https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/03/et...-to-stop-mcas/

    In car terms, it sounds like similar to being required to disable power steering in order to disable lane-keeping assist, while also having a steering rack that was never really intended for use without power assist (with the key difference is that power steering is much less necessary at speed, while the airplane controls in question apparently got harder to use at higher speed). The hypotheses presented is that the pilots couldn't provide enough control input without the assistance of the electronic control motors, and re-enabling those motors allowed the computer to provide the errant inputs to create a large crater and kill everyone on board.

    If you want to talk about this in terms of autonomous vehicles, I think there are a few key points that get easily overlooked:
    1. statistically, commercial air travel is still one of the safest ways to travel, and these crashesótwo in five monthsóare in the news precisely because of how rare they are
    2. yes, it's still horribly tragic for anyone onboard, and for the family and friends of those onboard, but as already noted, there have probably been more human-induced traffic deaths since this thread got bumped
    3. if the preliminary reports are correct, this is a combination of a significant engineering muck-up (why the heck didn't the MCAS verify the input from both airspeed sensors and disable itself if they disagreed?), a failure in training, a prioritization of profit over safety (apparently in the certification process for the aircraft, and definitely in the way aircraft were sold with features that could help alleviate this issue as optional add-ons), and quite possibly a side effect of reduced regulation in the aircraft certification process
    Disclaimer: Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself, unless I'm saying something incredibly dumb, in which case I didn't say anything and you're hallucinating.

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