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  1. #91
    Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abc View Post
    More than that, some also only conflate "work ethic" with long hours.

    In this day and age, it's important to work smart, not just work hard. Get more done in the same amount of time/effort, rather than just staying late.
    No your wrong. This is a millennia construct. If you bang stuff out fast and leave early the perception is that you don't have enough to do. And if you take the initiative to work longer hours, people notice and will reward you. Also, if you do bang stuff out fast and use your extra time to text, cruse the internet, shoot the shit with your colleagues, take long lunches, etc. Then that is even worse. I hate to say it but as an employer, everything you are saying make me and most of the management team cringe. I am not at a software company where hours are flex, there is a quiet room to take a nap if you need and long lunches and team building take priority. This is real blue collar work where things are serious and only the hard working people survive.


  2. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by cdskier View Post
    I'd like to understand what is really driving those drastic cost increases. I doubt they're paying professors that much more than when I was there... Something doesn't quite add up to me.
    Government. As with many problems.

    College tuition is an unsustainable (as you mentioned) bubble driven by access to easy money in the form of ever increasing Federal loans for education. Economics 101. When you flood a given area with cash, it leads to inflation; in this case, tuition inflation, and the expansion of government federal-aid for college has skyrocketed over the last few decades.

    And salaries for professors have generally risen.
    President - Bicknell's Thrush Extermination Solutions (BTES), LLC



  3. #93
    Oh, one other serious problem?

    When "money is easy", it leads to increased demand to grab that cash. I would argue that if you looked at the value and rigor of a college diploma handed out in 2019 it would be less than 2009, which would be less than 1999, etc.... We have entire BS colleges today cranking out sub-par educations.

    I read a phenomenal article about a year ago that noted that plenty of colleges today wouldn't consider hiring their own "PhD" graduates to become professors!

    Simply put, college is getting "easier" and the degree/product "less valuable".
    President - Bicknell's Thrush Extermination Solutions (BTES), LLC



  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, I started out in a small company and worked my way up by working hard, never saying no and working long hours. I know the gig and have done it all. You are making my point. My experiences are that the younger guys come in, inexperienced and think they can do it better and should get paid as much as the more experienced guys which is never true. In construction you need the experience. They cannot go elsewhere and get the same salary and work less. Profit sharing is voluntary and is given when deserved. Work hard and you will get a bonus on my jobs. Act like you are entitled and get nothing. Also the hard workers get the promotions and work their way up the ladder. That's what I did. Again, NO ONE is entitled to nothing until they earn it.
    We're both making the same point.

    Young professional can learn a lot more working in a smaller outfit where they're more directly related to the outcome of their work. They also learn a lot more in the process.

    Working in a large firm, they don't see the impact of their work. It's a weeding out process. Those who are self-motivated got "motivated" to smaller firms. Only the "lazy" stay at big firms where, their promotion path are often blocked by long time employees, and there's a lot more politics of "appearing" to work hard without achieving real output.

    [EDIT] Probably "lazy" is the wrong word. They're just not the self-motivated kind. They maybe the kind who got the job done, and do no more.

  5. #95
    One other thing about the "college boom" - Much of this has been promulgated by the lie that, "everyone should have a college education", a dopey statement happily spouted by politicians from both of our major parties.

    Not EVERYONE is college material, and we are doing a huge disservice to kids by psychologically making them feel they are "lesser" persons if they dont have a college degree. I find this sentiment as vomitously elitist as I do both false & destructive.

    When you shoehorn someone who would be happier and more successful as a plumber or a mechanic into a college education not suited to him/her, you simply saddle them with a largely useless scrap of paper and loads of debt. And for what? Plumbers in this country now make 6-figure salaries. [/rant over]
    President - Bicknell's Thrush Extermination Solutions (BTES), LLC



  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
    I definitely see this becoming a thing. Unrealistic expectations too.

    I find the people out of college at my company seem frustrated starting out low, or at the very least, seem to have this unrealistically high measure or opinion of their worth to the company even though they literally have no experience, and just a college background. When I was 22, I knew I knew nothing and had a lot to learn, but some of these folks (not all obviously) seem to think they should start in management.
    I blame a lot of that on colleges. So many routinely tell their students (and prospective students), "with a xyz degree from our prestigious university you'll start out earning <insert crazy high salary number here> when you graduate". So they leave college and expect just that... While that does happen sometimes, it is more the exception of someone that got lucky and stepping in shit rather than the rule.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
    One other thing about the "college boom" - Much of this has been promulgated by the lie that, "everyone should have a college education", a dopey statement happily spouted by politicians from both of our major parties.

    Not EVERYONE is college material, and we are doing a huge disservice to kids by psychologically making them feel they are "lesser" persons if they dont have a college degree. I find this sentiment as vomitously elitist as I do both false & destructive.

    When you shoehorn someone who would be happier and more successful as a plumber or a mechanic into a college education not suited to him/her, you simply saddle them with a largely useless scrap of paper and loads of debt. And for what? Plumbers in this country now make 6-figure salaries. [/rant over]
    I could not agree more with this. The whole pushing everyone to go to college thing is nonsense. Personally I think even for people that do belong going to college, we still as a society go "too early" before many people truly know what they want to do for a career.

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post

    I read a phenomenal article about a year ago that noted that plenty of colleges today wouldn't consider hiring their own "PhD" graduates to become professors!

    Simply put, college is getting "easier" and the degree/product "less valuable".
    Turns out it was an except from a book, not an article. I recall I agreed with it so much that I screenshotted it and emailed it to my brother, so I still had it.

    Death of education.jpg
    President - Bicknell's Thrush Extermination Solutions (BTES), LLC



  9. #99
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    As has been noted, our federal government drove college tuition up into the stratosphere when it got into the college loan business. Don't blame the colleges, they did only what any capitalistic entity does, they raised tuition when demand grew. And helped stoke that demand. Caveat Emptor...let the buyer beware.

    Yes, many folks would be better served in life by not going to college. I know plenty of younger workers in the trades that are doing quite well for themselves because they thought for themselves and realized were better off going to work as an apprentice plumber or carpenter after high school. And it makes no sense to take out huge loans to pay for tuition unless you are getting a useful degree, i.e. high paying. And it certainly makes no sense to take out huge loans and then never finish your degree. Because you still owe that money.

    Which brings me to free tuition and loan forgiveness. Cause a generational issue and then "fix" it by making taxpayers who have nothing to do with creating the issue pay for it. Punishment of the innocent. And a self-sustaining cycle of bailouts and dependence.

    So before we vilify people or whole generations of being entitled or lazy let's look first at the financial/governmental environment they are working in.

  10. #100
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    When the going gets tough, the tough get going. Yes the financial environment is tougher now than 30 or 50 years ago when our fathers made a living, but some of the young are making it just fine, so why are there so many not? Is it something in the water? the air? No, we are raising, for the most part, children ill equipped to "dig in", and with too much expectation of instant gratification. Now, having said that, of course the world has changed and we do not need as many workers to "feed" the world as we once did: think "automation" in the larger sense ( I'm using feed as a metaphor here ). But that problem is only going to get worse as we continue to automate everything. So, we need the next generation to dig in and solve the problems facing them, and not shy away because they were coddled with the "everyone gets a star, helicopter mom" era of raising kids, which does not seem to be mitigating.

    There are a lot of good comments in the above posts ^ in this thread. Are there gross generalizations, and personal experiences that don't translate to all, of course, but you don't get a stereotype without a kernel of truth. I know a lot of business owners who say, "you can't get good help these days". I have known several business owners that have closed up shop because they cannot get the kids to work as they are expected and needed to to fill the positions needed to run the business. In my business (building super computers), I have seen both; a very few of the younger engineers are super stars with good work ethics, most, not so much, and don't dig in to make themselves a star. We all have heard the oft quoted phrase that the young "US American" kids won't work the farm fields, so we need the, often illegal, immigrants to do the jobs nobody else want's to do. There is a kernel of truth to that, but there is also a glimmer of hope in the fact that there is a new generation of young farmers taking up the charge to create the next generation of sustainable farmers, at least in some parts of this country.

    So it's a mixed bag. But in general, we, as a society, need to raise kids that are tough, resilient, flexible, and can take rejection without going ape shit. We need to stop coddling our kids and teach then responsibility and respect for themselves and others. We need to get our heads out of the media and stop the vicious cycle of "keeping up with the Joneses/Kardashians" We need our kids to think for ourselves, and make their own life, and not compare themselves to others and get depressed because we don't have that life.

    /rant

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