Vail Resorts is buying Peak Resorts. - Page 47

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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    I always thought driving up 108 to 16 took longer than 15 minutes, but it has been a hot minute. I was mores referencing Portsmouth though where the most money is now.

    Without giving it away, you take the shortcut around N Conway also right for Attitash? I used to be able to boogie and get there from my place in Exeter in about 1:30, but that was always super early in the morning. Coming back did take longer.

    Either way, those are short drive times relatively for EC skiing.
    Yes, taking the short cut. It's 20 minutes to get exit 8 on 16 in Dover for me. A little less actually. It's probably about ten minutes from the Portsmouth traffic circle there.

    Lots more traffic on 16 these days compared to when you lived back here. Dover and Rochester blowing up as Portsmouth is unattainable basically for family incomes sub $250k.

    And everywhere in the area is getting pricey. There's no new construction under $400k in Newmarket. Even recent new condos going for that. Single families more like $475+ for 2k square feet. Speaking of Dover, I just saw an article on new apartments in Dover downtown for $2400/month for two bedrooms, 1 parking spot and no private outdoor space / balcony.

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  2. #462
    I wonder if anyone would make a run at Attitash, Wildcat, Crotched as it's own little cluster like Booth Creek did years ago with the Threedom Pass and WV, Loon, and Cranmore.

    Actually, wasn't WV considered close to for sale for a long time with the Sununu family looking to exit?

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  3. #463
    I think Vail either keeps both Attitash and Wildcat or dumps them both and here's why.

    A. Wildcat is the most efficient and inexpensive to run 2k mountain in New England save for MRG. 80% of the year you can run it on two chairs and a carpet. It only has one base lodge and requires minimal snowmaking and grooming.

    B. Attitash isn't a good enough mountain to stand on its own in the MWV. There is a massive amount of second home owners in the Valley. If I'm your typical vacation home ski family who digs mainly groomers and my pass choices are the Superpass with Bretton Woods, Cranmore and even Cannon in reasonable range or just Attitash on Epic with no other options in reasonable commute; I'm easily going Superpass unless I have a western trip planned. Maybe even if I do have western trip planned. So, if they divest Wildcat, Attitash is gonna lose a big chunk of visits to the Superpass plus probably 50+% of Cat skiers will just stay skiing at Cat and not go with an Attitash Epic pass.

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  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss View Post
    Honestly, I am VERY interested to see what Vail does with its newly purchased NH properties. As someone previously said, they now own FOUR major resorts in NH. ASC had to divest when it had control of three (maybe four--Cranmore, Attitash, WV, and at least part of Loon IIRC). I wonder if they will have to spin off one or two and which ones they spin off.

    NH's ski market is very different from Maine or Vermont in that there are a fair number of larger "day" areas as opposed to destination resorts. Vail now has three areas I might consider to be day areas (Crotched, Sunapee, maybe Wildcat) and one "destination" resort (Attitash). Big consideration for me is the amount of folks staying onsite in lodging to make it a "destination" area. Although, admittedly, Wildcat doesn't really fit into a day or a destination area because it has no real onsite lodging but is pretty far from the major cities.

    And, once again, we are all shown that Vail is not too eager to buy a place that needs a lot of work to reopen (such as Saddleback) and is more inclined to go with established brands (Stowe, Triple Peaks, Peaks Resorts). Anyone think that Boyne will cash out? Sugarbush (Win is getting old)?
    Me too. Don't forget they now own three big boys in VT, too. That could potentially be a problem, too. I'd be interested to make sense of the logic used in the antitrust case back then to see what it could portend this time around.

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  5. #465
    Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true. Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.
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  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by deadheadskier View Post
    I think Vail either keeps both Attitash and Wildcat or dumps them both and here's why.

    A. Wildcat is the most efficient and inexpensive to run 2k mountain in New England save for MRG. 80% of the year you can run it on two chairs and a carpet. It only has one base lodge and requires minimal snowmaking and grooming.

    B. Attitash isn't a good enough mountain to stand on its own in the MWV. There is a massive amount of second home owners in the Valley. If I'm your typical vacation home ski family who digs mainly groomers and my pass choices are the Superpass with Bretton Woods, Cranmore and even Cannon in reasonable range or just Attitash on Epic with no other options in reasonable commute; I'm easily going Superpass unless I have a western trip planned. Maybe even if I do have western trip planned. So, if they divest Wildcat, Attitash is gonna lose a big chunk of visits to the Superpass plus probably 50+% of Cat skiers will just stay skiing at Cat and not go with an Attitash Epic pass.

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    Totally with you on A.

    Re B: do you really think there are enough people that would actually make good use of the super pass with second homes in the MWV? The only customer archetypes I could see using it are bachelor nomads and retired people. With a family, it would be a lot to ask to drive to your second home then drive to BW or Cannon with any regularity.

    I've been through this exercise before because I've thought about whether skiing Cannon more often would make sense. The only concussion I could draw is that I'd need to be based in Lincoln/N. Woodstock to pull it off. If you're in NoCo, BW and Cannon become 40 and 60ish minute hikes. If you're near Attitash, you can get that down to 25 and 45ish, but in that case, you're a stone's throw from Attitash, so why ski Cranmore, BW and Cannon?

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  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
    Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true. Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.
    Hah. So true!

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by eastern powder baby View Post
    Totally with you on A.

    Re B: do you really think there are enough people that would actually make good use of the super pass with second homes in the MWV? The only customer archetypes I could see using it are bachelor nomads and retired people. With a family, it would be a lot to ask to drive to your second home then drive to BW or Cannon with any regularity.

    I've been through this exercise before because I've thought about whether skiing Cannon more often would make sense. The only concussion I could draw is that I'd need to be based in Lincoln/N. Woodstock to pull it off. If you're in NoCo, BW and Cannon become 40 and 60ish minute hikes. If you're near Attitash, you can get that down to 25 and 45ish, but in that case, you're a stone's throw from Attitash, so why ski Cranmore, BW and Cannon?

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    3 vs 1.

    Personally, if it was me; I'd be one of the folks who just stayed at Wildcat. It's my favorite overall skiing experience in New England. Unless Vail really screws the place up, I pretty much always see myself having a pass there provided my primary residence remains on the NH Seacoast.

    But, if I was someone who preferred a more manicured skiing experience I'd take the BW, Cranmore and Cannon access over just Attitash even recognizing two out of three would have significantly longer commutes. Cannon is a much better better mountain than Attitash IMO. Even though BW is pretty flat, I actually think it's a better skiing experience than Attitash due to having vastly more glades and far more/better snow.

    So given the scenario, I'd see myself skiing Cranmore on Saturdays when conditions weren't great and I want something convenient. Bretton Woods on Saturdays that the conditions were good; and then most Sundays I'd hit Cannon on my way South out of town.

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  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadheadskier View Post
    Even though BW is pretty flat, I actually think it's a better skiing experience than Attitash due to having vastly more glades and far more/better snow.
    Truth. Also, even from North Conway proper, the BW drive is a piece of cake. The Cannon drive feels longer than it actually is, somehow.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Edd View Post
    Truth. Also, even from North Conway proper, the BW drive is a piece of cake. The Cannon drive feels longer than it actually is, somehow.
    I hear what you guys are saying, I just can't imagine getting to Cannon with any regularity from MWV after already driving there from down south most weekends in the winter. Cannon is the only of the three of the three I'd take over Attitash. It's got the most challenging terrain in NH and some of the toughest in the east. Their snow isnt fantastic and I personally don't like the layout. These factors make Wildcat the better overall experience for me, too (easily the second best terrain in NH and you can crank out a full day's worth of runs at most places by noon there).

    I rarely went to Cranmore when I wasn't racing, but I never found that place interesting. That could have changed a bit with that new upper mountain triple that lets you access the steeper stuff more easily/directly - not sure.

    Maybe I never got the memo, but BW has always bored me. A day skiing is better than a day sitting at home, but every time I went there and poked around in the woods, I was disappointed by the lack of pitch generally, and the lack of sustained pitch where I was able to find a little bit of steepness. It's a great operation, but skews too Sr. citizen and/or lower intermediate for me.

    Attitash only on the epic local pass is ~$200 cheaper than the super pass, and unless I'm a bachelor with his own MWV pad, I don't know how I pull off not spending almost all my days at Cranmore or BW. I'd rather ski Attitash and use the savings to take some day trips wherever I wanted, or use the savings to take a weekend to VT (granted, savings would only pay for a trip if you needed to buy passes for a family, not just one for yourself).

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