Saddleback Meeting

bdfreetuna · Feb 20, 2020

Depends if the Dead fan or the Biscuits fan was the one with a shaky hand

I hope the roommate with the Saddleback sticker held true to his roots. I lost a whole decade of skiing in my otherwise-prime due to "music bands". Basically first Phish festival I went to I probably forgot skiing was even a thing for another 12 years. Could have been worse!

jimmywilson69 · Feb 20, 2020

zero chance I roll the dice with a pressie nowadays...

bdfreetuna · Feb 20, 2020

jimmywilson69 said:
zero chance I roll the dice with a pressie nowadays...

machski · Feb 20, 2020

sull1102 said:
In the article the Berry family says they felt they needed another 10-15k skier visits annually to break even or at least be sustainable. With the excitement of new owners and the new detachable quad I think they have a real good shot at getting those additional visits in year two of being reopened.

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That"s a nice thought but misplaced. They may have needed 10-15K more visits before, but add in the cost to acquire and operate/maintain a HSQ, you probably at least doubled the amount of additional skiers/riders to break even.

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jimmywilson69 · Feb 20, 2020

bdfreetuna said:

:lol: :lol:

thetrailboss · Feb 21, 2020

machski said:
Well, this is an interesting article. Tries to make the Berry's sound like the good guys. They may have held off of selling to buyers who may have pieced out the resort, but try telling that to the business owners in Rangley who have held on by threads the last several years.

https://www.mainebiz.biz/article/saddleback-sellers-buyers-say-rangeley-region-community-came-first

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That is the biggest issue in my mind. But I do understand that it is a lot of pressure for the family. That said, the whole thing began because of a game of chicken with the State over funding for the new lift. I just have scratch my head on that one. Seems awful petty and really shortsighted.

uphillklimber said:
I agree, it would be hard to tell business owners there about the desires to keep the ski resort as a ski resort. But at any given time, anyone could have attempted to buy the ski area and run it themselves and show how good all their business acumen was.

I'll give the Berry's the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Another big thing is that after they closed the Berry's remained quiet for so long. I get not wanting to show their hand and trying to get a deal going, but the silence caused a lot of speculation and negativity.

The other thing that they "kind of" explained is how they invested $60 some odd million (supposedly) into the place as "charity". Otherwise, spending $60 million to get $6 million back sounds like bad business decisionmaking. Granted though they invested a lot of the revenue from the venture into it, but it sounds like they lost a lot of money.

It just all seems so odd to me still.

bdfreetuna · Feb 21, 2020

overall I think given the positive eventual turnout, the Berry's should be given every benefit of the doubt. While many of us were criticizing them and assuming their motivations were compromised, it seems they played the right hand not only for themselves (which is and should be their primary priority; being a landowner and tourism driver doesn't make you *personally* responsible if things turn south -- especially after the contributions they've already made).

Not odd... rather clear to me now. Thank you Berry's for being wise enough to ensure this mountain has a future. You didn't owe anybody anything but the end result is best for both the ski community and local economy.

Many of us, in their shoes, could have done a lot worse

x10003q · Feb 21, 2020

machski said:
Well, this is an interesting article. Tries to make the Berry's sound like the good guys. They may have held off of selling to buyers who may have pieced out the resort, but try telling that to the business owners in Rangley who have held on by threads the last several years.

https://www.mainebiz.biz/article/saddleback-sellers-buyers-say-rangeley-region-community-came-first

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There is lots of revisionist history in that article trying to make the Berrys look better after the multiple bad decisions they have made while owning SB.

They first put SB up for sale 8 years ago, not 5 years ago. They were asking $12 million for just the 400 acre ski area, which was absurd. The Berrys wanted to keep the other 7600 acres out of the sale. They closed the mountain because they claimed the Rangeley Double needed to be replaced. How much is a ski area in the middle of nowhere worth that needs to replace the main lift? It was clear that they were in no hurry to sell or find a real buyer by asking for $12 million.

The Berrys have also repeatedly claimed they spent $13 million on the lodge, not the $10 million that is mentioned in the article. The idea of spending $13 million on a lodge at a ski area that might see 80k visits in its best year is the very definition of a bad business decision. They should have taken some of the money spent on the lodge and replaced the Rangeley Double with some kind of quad chair. Any person visiting the resort could see the Rangeley double as a gigantic bottleneck, yet somehow the Berrys missed it.

The Berrys claim they where waiting for the right buyer and then made a deal in the summer of 2017 with an Australian "developer" named Sebastian Monsour and the Majella Group. We all know how this turned out. Anybody with an internet connection could see this guy was at best a fraud, just based on what he was doing in Portland. It turned out he was a criminal. I guess the words due diligence are not in the Berrys vocabulary. This further delayed the sale.

We should all notice that the current buyer is running some kind of weird deal that includes donations and grants. We see zero mention of the current ski area resort companies as interested buyers. This is important to note as SB is a big time mountain, yet none of the big time players want it.

The Berrys get credit for pouring their own money into Saddleback in a vain effort to make it work. They have proved the old adage - "How do you make $6.5 million in the ski industry? Start with $60 million."

https://www.pressherald.com/2012/12/14/saddleback-for-sale-berry-family/

deadheadskier · Feb 21, 2020

x10003q said:
There is lots of revisionist history in that article trying to make the Berrys look better after the multiple bad decisions they have made while owning SB.

They first put SB up for sale 8 years ago, not 5 years ago. They were asking $12 million for just the 400 acre ski area, which was absurd. The Berrys wanted to keep the other 7600 acres out of the sale. They closed the mountain because they claimed the Rangeley Double needed to be replaced. How much is a ski area in the middle of nowhere worth that needs to replace the main lift? It was clear that they were in no hurry to sell or find a real buyer by asking for $12 million.

The Berrys have also repeatedly claimed they spent $13 million on the lodge, not the $10 million that is mentioned in the article. The idea of spending $13 million on a lodge at a ski area that might see 80k visits in its best year is the very definition of a bad business decision. They should have taken some of the money spent on the lodge and replaced the Rangeley Double with some kind of quad chair. Any person visiting the resort could see the Rangeley double as a gigantic bottleneck, yet somehow the Berrys missed it.

The Berrys claim they where waiting for the right buyer and then made a deal in the summer of 2017 with an Australian "developer" named Sebastian Monsour and the Majella Group. We all know how this turned out. Anybody with an internet connection could see this guy was at best a fraud, just based on what he was doing in Portland. It turned out he was a criminal. I guess the words due diligence are not in the Berrys vocabulary. This further delayed the sale.

We should all notice that the current buyer is running some kind of weird deal that includes donations and grants. We see zero mention of the current ski area resort companies as interested buyers. This is important to note as SB is a big time mountain, yet none of the big time players want it.

The Berrys get credit for pouring their own money into Saddleback in a vain effort to make it work. They have proved the old adage - "How do you make $6.5 million in the ski industry? Start with $60 million."

https://www.pressherald.com/2012/12/14/saddleback-for-sale-berry-family/

+1

I think their two biggest mistakes were prioritizing the Kennebago replacement over the Rangeley and spending too much on the lodge. Had they done the Rangeley first and gone with a modest lodge, they might've made it work.

Also very much agree about the $12M ask for 400 acres. That was ridiculous. And you're right about all the major players kicking the tires. I recall having a conversation with Sugarloaf's Director of marketing and he said as much. They, Vail, Powdr and all the big players took a look and didn't see an ROI with the infrastructure needs and acquisition cost in such a remote location.

I'm thrilled it sold and the HSQ is going in, but it's no given they survive long term. It's certainly a bit suspect the new owners don't have what appears to be very deep pockets.

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thetrailboss · Feb 21, 2020

x10003q said:
There is lots of revisionist history in that article trying to make the Berrys look better after the multiple bad decisions they have made while owning SB.

They first put SB up for sale 8 years ago, not 5 years ago. They were asking $12 million for just the 400 acre ski area, which was absurd. The Berrys wanted to keep the other 7600 acres out of the sale. They closed the mountain because they claimed the Rangeley Double needed to be replaced. How much is a ski area in the middle of nowhere worth that needs to replace the main lift? It was clear that they were in no hurry to sell or find a real buyer by asking for $12 million.

The Berrys have also repeatedly claimed they spent $13 million on the lodge, not the $10 million that is mentioned in the article. The idea of spending $13 million on a lodge at a ski area that might see 80k visits in its best year is the very definition of a bad business decision. They should have taken some of the money spent on the lodge and replaced the Rangeley Double with some kind of quad chair. Any person visiting the resort could see the Rangeley double as a gigantic bottleneck, yet somehow the Berrys missed it.

The Berrys claim they where waiting for the right buyer and then made a deal in the summer of 2017 with an Australian "developer" named Sebastian Monsour and the Majella Group. We all know how this turned out. Anybody with an internet connection could see this guy was at best a fraud, just based on what he was doing in Portland. It turned out he was a criminal. I guess the words due diligence are not in the Berrys vocabulary. This further delayed the sale.

We should all notice that the current buyer is running some kind of weird deal that includes donations and grants. We see zero mention of the current ski area resort companies as interested buyers. This is important to note as SB is a big time mountain, yet none of the big time players want it.

The Berrys get credit for pouring their own money into Saddleback in a vain effort to make it work. They have proved the old adage - "How do you make $6.5 million in the ski industry? Start with $60 million."

https://www.pressherald.com/2012/12/14/saddleback-for-sale-berry-family/

Agreed. Thanks for reminding us of the other issues. I think the "charity" line was in part to save face. It did seem to me that they were not very business savvy. I forgot how they got their money--was it an inheritance? Sale of a family business?

x10003q · Feb 21, 2020

thetrailboss said:
Agreed. Thanks for reminding us of the other issues. I think the "charity" line was in part to save face. It did seem to me that they were not very business savvy. I forgot how they got their money--was it an inheritance? Sale of a family business?

Insurance company heirs. They paid $8 million for SB in 2003.

deadheadskier · Feb 21, 2020

From New England Ski Industry website:

In 1971, the U.S. Investment Corporation was founded, which would include Mount Vernon Fire Insurance Company and US Underwriters Insurance Company. On August 8, 2000, Berkshire Hathaway acquired the U.S. Investment Corporation for an estimated $160 million in stock, mainly transferred to the extended Berry family.

They purchased Saddleback in 2003 including 8000 acres for $8M. Even that was probably an overpay. They only did 16k skier visits in 2002 and the Breens said they were going to close it.

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x10003q · Feb 21, 2020

deadheadskier said:
From New England Ski Industry website:

In 1971, the U.S. Investment Corporation was founded, which would include Mount Vernon Fire Insurance Company and US Underwriters Insurance Company. On August 8, 2000, Berkshire Hathaway acquired the U.S. Investment Corporation for an estimated $160 million in stock, mainly transferred to the extended Berry family.

They purchased Saddleback in 2003 including 8000 acres for $8M. Even that was probably an overpay. They only did 16k skier visits in 2002 and the Breens said they were going to close it.

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They got fleeced.

snoseek · Feb 21, 2020

That old tbar worked just fine at the time.

Base lodge needed work for sure but was way overkill.

thetrailboss · Feb 22, 2020

deadheadskier said:
From New England Ski Industry website:

In 1971, the U.S. Investment Corporation was founded, which would include Mount Vernon Fire Insurance Company and US Underwriters Insurance Company. On August 8, 2000, Berkshire Hathaway acquired the U.S. Investment Corporation for an estimated $160 million in stock, mainly transferred to the extended Berry family.

They purchased Saddleback in 2003 including 8000 acres for $8M. Even that was probably an overpay. They only did 16k skier visits in 2002 and the Breens said they were going to close it.

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x10003q said:
Insurance company heirs. They paid $8 million for SB in 2003.

Very interesting. Thanks guys.

kbroderick · Feb 24, 2020

deadheadskier said:
They purchased Saddleback in 2003 including 8000 acres for $8M. Even that was probably an overpay. They only did 16k skier visits in 2002 and the Breens said they were going to close it.

That's an interesting number to put things in perspective with respect to the SR/Loaf comparisons. Didn't Dana Bullen say 15k visits at Sunday River on a busy Saturday in the Storm Skiing podcast?

Hawk · Feb 24, 2020

Wow a busy day at Sugarbush is 6,000 to 7,000. I can't imagine !5,000

1dog · Feb 24, 2020

Hawk!

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

MEtoVTSkier · Mar 12, 2020

From Facebook

SADDLEBACK’S FAIR TICKET PRICING PLAN
At Saddleback, we believe pricing in the ski world has become far too complicated and leaves most people with the feeling – and rightfully so – that the person on the lift next to them probably paid a lot less for their ticket. We don’t believe you should have to know how to game the system to get a fair price. We believe there is a better way – the Saddleback way.
With our new high speed detachable quad, the improvements we’re making to the lodge and a significant investment in our snowmaking system, we’re excited about what we’re going to be offering. Instead of all sorts of discounting that leaves some people paying full price and others, on that same day, paying far less, we’re going to give the same discount to everyone. Our Fair Ticket Pricing Plan, is intended to make skiing more accessible and fair to everyone, but is also intended to allow the mountain to be sustainable.
We will be able to take season pass orders next week through our website and wanted to notify you today of our pricing plan. Be looking for www.saddlebackmaine.com going live on March 18th.
"Without you we’re just another mountain
and we’re #notjustanothermountain."
LIMITED NUMBER OF LOCKER PACKAGES: We will also be offering 250 season pass packages that include a ski locker in the base lodge for the ski season at the stated price of a season pass + $300. We know there will be a lot of demand for those lockers, so be prepared to place your order right away. We want to be fair to everyone and don’t have confidence after five years that we have the complete list of prior locker holders. We’ll be adding over 100 new lockers and feel the fairest approach is to open it to everyone on a first-come-first-serve basis. Note: The Ski Locker packages can be purchased by full payment of a season pass + $300 at the time of purchase.
Easy payment plans will also be available for all other passes.
* Saddleback is an independent mountain and we believe that’s what our guests are looking for, but we’ve also partnered with Jay Peak in Vermont to offer all our pass holders two FREE days of skiing at their resort. We know Saddleback is where you’re going to want to ski, but if you want to check out another great mountain with a similar laid back culture, Jay Peak is the place

Smellytele · Mar 12, 2020

Day price look good

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