Sugarbush is being sold to Alterra...

cdskier said:

Curious what you think is so bad about HG? Reliability has not been an issue at all the past couple seasons. Capacity I wouldn't want to see increased as I don't think the trails at the summit could handle more traffic. It is on wind hold enough as is, so no way you'd want to go to a detachable and make it even worse in the wind.

Click to expand...

thebigo said:

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.

Click to expand...

cdskier said:

Ahh...when you said "departure" I was thinking the lower terminus (i.e. when the lift first "takes off"). Yea, the top is a bit of a challenge with having to go uphill a bit, but wind is a major reason HG didn't terminate at the old gondola summit. I'll take the trade-off of a little extra exercise vs a lift that goes on wind hold more often.

Yea, there's a lot of people with very big (and unrealistic imo) dreams here. I don't see Alterra coming in and spending massive amounts of money. I suspect you continue to see incremental improvements of 1 or 2 things a year similar to what was done in the past except at possibly a slightly accelerated rate. The needed snowmaking upgrades alone that are on Win's plan would require significant capital investment. Alterra isn't going to make the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.

Click to expand...

mister moose said:

There's just so much you can afford to do on 400,000 skier visits and a flat growth curve.

Click to expand...

Hawk said:

So my friends were not so off the mark. Actually I heard more thought better of saying anything. I find it somewhat disappointing but I guess like Machski is saying, they are the better fit. We will see.

Now I have a new owner that I can badger with my snowmaking wants! LOL

Click to expand...

HowieT2 said:

I don’t know what they are going to do, and it’s beyond me how the finances work. But it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales. If that’s the case, they need to have a stable of resorts in most areas to attract skiers to icon as opposed to epic. And now sugarbush is their answer to vails Stowe. Stowe’s capital investments have dwarfed those at sugarbush, so you would think, the Alterra people know they have to invest in some capital improvements. At least I hope so.

Click to expand...

cdskier said:

I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.

I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.

Click to expand...

cdskier said:

I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.

I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.

Click to expand...

HowieT2 said:

it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales.

Click to expand...

thebigo said:

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition?

Click to expand...

tumbler said:

Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President.

I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens. Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.

Click to expand...

tumbler said:

Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President.

I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens. Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.

Click to expand...

HowieT2 said:

exactly. The snowmaking at Stowe is significantly ahead of what sugarbush has, and that needs a major investment. The lodges at mt Ellen r great and I,love them but they’re inadequate especially if you want to drive some traffic over there. A new hotel doesn’t have to be a monstrosity like spruce peak, but there is demand for something moderate.

Click to expand...

drjeff said:

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status?

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year

Click to expand...

drjeff said:

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status?

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year

Click to expand...

drjeff said:

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status?

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year

Click to expand...