Superpasses: more crowds?

Ski2LiveLive2Ski · Feb 6, 2020

Is it total visits (pass holders + day sales) that are flat, or total revenue (pass sales + day sales) that is flat or is it day sales that are flat?

Smellytele · Feb 6, 2020

Thought it was total visits

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machski · Feb 6, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
It's not at all far-fetched from the consumer standpoint at all, it's the business standpoint that I'm not comfortable with. He claims Killington visits are the SAME pre & post-IKON, it's just that many people are apparently now IKON visitors. How is it possible that that does that not impact the Killington margin negatively?

The other thing I think is odd is allowing & being okay with a 3rd-party competitor to "control" such a huge portion of your revenue in the Killington case (again, if he is to be believed). If I worked there, I would warn, "Alterra aint our friend" and this is an unequal symbiotic relationship at best.

Do Killington (and other resorts) REALLY believe that the day isnt going to come when Alterra & Vail start to "squeeze" them if & when "cooperation" becomes "dependence"? Alterra & Vail hold the data, they are keenly aware just how many days are used at every resort.

Well, look, Powdr has a bit different relationship with Alterra when it comes to partners. Why do I say that? Because Copper and Eldora, while Powdr owned and operated, are unlimited Ikon on base and full. They are the only partner resorts like that, mostly because they allow Alterra to leverage against Vail in Colorado (along with Winter Park). So in this way, Killington I suppose could possibly go unlimited since Powdr already has similar arrangements, but I don't really see that happening. Especially now that Alterra owns SB in addition to Stratton. It will be interesting to see if Killington looses Ikon visits next season, depending on how Alterra elects to play Stratton/Sugarbush moving forward.

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Orca · Feb 7, 2020

WSJ article, 6 February 2020

Are Ski Resorts Getting Too Crowded? Yes and No

BenedictGomez · Feb 7, 2020

Hope they're having an EPIC day in 15" of new snow. You'd think it was 35".

snoseek · Feb 7, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
Hope they're having an EPIC day in 15" of new snow. You'd think it was 35".

And that's technically a midweek day.

I'm enjoying a nice break from this kind of shit this winter and loving it.

Edd · Feb 7, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
Hope they're having an EPIC day in 15" of new snow. You'd think it was 35".

Where is this?

BenedictGomez · Feb 7, 2020

Edd said:
Where is this?

Vail. The crazy thing is the highway was shut down with apparently miles of backed-up traffic, meaning it could have been worse.

Not Sure · Feb 7, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
Vail. The crazy thing is the highway was shut down with apparently miles of backed-up traffic, meaning it could have been worse.

Video from Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/skiing/comments/f0cblu/lift_line_apocalypse_at_vail_after_a_17_dump/

deadheadskier · Feb 7, 2020

To be fair, Vail only has five lifts coming out of the base that gets you to the Upper Mountain, which is a real problem when you have 20-30k people showing up to ski on a busy day. My experience there has been once you're up top, there's no where near that chaos.

That said, I have zero desire to go back there. I went because it's Vail and at the time it was the biggest ski area in the US, so I wanted to see that. Disneyland base villages aren't my thing and the terrain isn't all that exciting compared to their neighbors. Sure, they have better terrain and snow than anywhere in the East, but the overall experience sucks for my tastes. I'd rather ski Loveland, ABasin, Highlands etc.

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raisingarizona · Feb 7, 2020

Teton Village this morning

Scruffy · Feb 7, 2020

raisingarizona said:
Teton Village this morning

View attachment 26198

Looks bad, but that is before the lifts open and that crowd will all be dispersed within 20 minutes. The best tactic is to wait for the first load to go, then it's a breeze. I was there last week and skied 6 days. Only line I had to wait more than 3 minutes for ( not counting the morning lineup like in that picture ) was the tram (and the tram is always a wait). It snowed every day except one, and we had fresh 6-8 inches at the top most mornings, not killer, but considering they got 11 feet before that, there was plenty of snow. If fact, it was a lot less crowed last week than last year when I was there about this time.

Edited to add: most lifts out of base area were ski on, or ~1 minute wait.

raisingarizona · Feb 7, 2020

Scruffy said:
Looks bad, but that is before the lifts open and that crowd will all be dispersed within 20 minutes. The best tactic is to wait for the first load to go, then it's a breeze. I was there last week and skied 6 days. Only line I had to wait more than 3 minutes for ( not counting the morning lineup like in that picture ) was the tram (and the tram is always a wait). It snowed every day except one, and we had fresh 6-8 inches at the top most mornings, not killer, but considering they got 11 feet before that, there was plenty of snow. If fact, it was a lot less crowed last week than last year when I was there about this time.

Edited to add: most lifts out of base area were ski on, or ~1 minute wait.

If you skied there regularly 20 years ago you would feel differently. It was all about the tram, all day long. All of January was walk on’s.

As for the other lifts out of the base, there’s only two that count.

Scruffy · Feb 7, 2020

I did ski there 20 years ago. What about my post says I love the new normal? I'm simply saying I still ski there and enjoy all the skiing I can handle each day with minimal lift lines once the morning rush is done.
And the Sublette chair will get you most of the terrain the Tram does without the hassle.

abc · Feb 7, 2020

Scruffy said:
And the Sublette chair will get you most of the terrain the Tram does without the hassle.

What do you mean “minimal hassle” when it comes to the Sublette chair? 20 mins?

That’s how long the lift line on a Saturday last year.

Scruffy · Feb 7, 2020

abc said:
What do you mean “minimal hassle” when it comes to the Sublette chair? 20 mins?

That’s how long the lift line on a Saturday last year.

Skied there a lot; every year. Never seen a line on the Sublette chair even approach 20 min. Guess I've been lucky.

BenedictGomez · Feb 7, 2020

Scruffy said:
Looks bad, but that is before the lifts open and that crowd will all be dispersed within 20 minutes.

Oh god, who cares is my reaction. I just have no desire to ski someplace where that's a thing, goes against all the reasons I recreate with skiing to begin with. That's a horror show, even if you "only" have to deal with it for 30 minutes.

raisingarizona · Feb 7, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
Oh god, who cares is my reaction. I just have no desire to ski someplace where that's a thing, goes against all the reasons I recreate with skiing to begin with. That's a horror show, even if you "only" have to deal with it for 30 minutes.

I don’t anymore either.

If Jackson plans to stay on ikon they better also be planning on another gondola from the base to move people up and out. Probably up the lower faces to a spot that can get you to the thunder and sublets chairs.

raisingarizona · Feb 7, 2020

Scruffy said:
I did ski there 20 years ago. What about my post says I love the new normal? I'm simply saying I still ski there and enjoy all the skiing I can handle each day with minimal lift lines once the morning rush is done.
And the Sublette chair will get you most of the terrain the Tram does without the hassle.

Sublette and thunder laps are fun but the red box is the ticket. If you know you know, if you don’t......you don’t

BenedictGomez · Feb 7, 2020

deadheadskier said:
Vail only has five lifts coming out of the base that gets you to the Upper Mountain, which is a real problem when you have 20-30k people showing up to ski on a busy day. My experience there has been once you're up top, there's no where near that chaos.

That said, I have zero desire to go back there. I went because it's Vail and at the time it was the biggest ski area in the US, so I wanted to see that. Disneyland base villages aren't my thing and the terrain isn't all that exciting compared to their neighbors. Sure, they have better terrain and snow than anywhere in the East, but the overall experience sucks for my tastes. I'd rather ski Loveland, ABasin, Highlands etc.

Superpasses: more crowds?

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