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Superpasses: more crowds?
- Thread starter Greg
- Start date
Zermatt
Active member
Ikon Pass pricing came out on this Tuesday (today), in 2019.
They say the same about Aspen and Telluride.
I guess the difference between Aspen and DV is Aspen has legitimate terrain, DV doesn't.
But so what? The point is not whether the "brand" is eroded. The point is the brand may has CHANGED. And the change, while it may not be to the liking of the existing owner, it's unlikely they'll lose money. Because the new brand maybe attracting MORE interest, and BETTER value for someone else!
Have you been to Deer Valley? I’d put Aspen in the same category. Not so sure about Telluride. Deer Valley has long held the title of the original posh area.
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Exactly. DV homes are multi-million. Many north of $10 million. Those aren’t going to be VRBO/AirBNB units.
I’m surprised that Alterra hasn’t allowed snowboarders yet [emoji6]
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So where are all these highfalutin DV, Telluride, Jackson, Aspen and Stowe skiers gonna go because the exclusivity brand at those areas has been tarnished?
What other North American resorts are offering the same type of a product with a high priced and independent pass? A lot the attraction to these areas aren't just the ski areas, but the towns themselves with the higher end restaurants and galleries.
It's not like a Burke could just put a $1800 price tag on a pass promising limited crowds and a bunch of Stowe skiers with seven figure homes are going to migrate over.
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What other North American resorts are offering the same type of a product with a high priced and independent pass? A lot the attraction to these areas aren't just the ski areas, but the towns themselves with the higher end restaurants and galleries.
It's not like a Burke could just put a $1800 price tag on a pass promising limited crowds and a bunch of Stowe skiers with seven figure homes are going to migrate over.
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KustyTheKlown
Well-known member
the slopeside homes you see from the lifts at DV are fucking wild. like mark cuban richard branson jeff bezos fuckin wild.
IIRC the numbers had been flat if not declining but last season was up. And, IIRC, the NSAA attributed the uptick to....wait for it...great snow. Clearly Alterra got to them [emoji6]
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abc
Well-known member
Not only had I been to DV many time pre-Ikon, I had done them for free! Free as in flying in the morning and ski DV free!!! Remember those???
Such “exclusivity” that everyone is assuming!
I also have a friend who lived in PC for the past 10+ years. There had been MANY discount schemes for the “unwashed masses” to afford DV, if they so wish! Many don’t bother because there’s not much that makes DV’s stands out over the competition.
It’s only exclusive in the mind of those who bought into the charade. It never was exclusive before Ikon. Not as far as the skiing goes.
Unlike Aspen, which has no nearby bed base, DV can be done by anyone who’s paying a day ticket, then go back to a fleebag motel in SLC at the end of the day. It’s nowhere near as “exclusive” as Aspen. Posh perhaps, exclusive no.
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BenedictGomez
Well-known member
What exactly is your definition of "posh" versus "exclusive" exactly? 
A parade of rich & famous people ski at Deer Valley probably weekly, I'd say it's akin with Aspen, Vail, and Jackson Hole in that regard.
A parade of rich & famous people ski at Deer Valley probably weekly, I'd say it's akin with Aspen, Vail, and Jackson Hole in that regard.
abc
Well-known member
The rich and famous are still there. But people seem to think just because there’re riff-raff there, the “brand” is cheapened.What exactly is your definition of "posh" versus "exclusive" exactly?
A parade of rich & famous people ski at Deer Valley probably weekly, I'd say it's akin with Aspen, Vail, and Jackson Hole in that regard.
I’m merely pointing out DV had always have plenty of riffraffs! In reality, DV had actively try to attract them in the past.
More over, the daily ticket cap is still there.
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They're not? Do a search of Deer Valet on VRBO. I picked a random week in February for next season. I found 85 homes available from $2500 to as high as $17,820 per night. Really hope the top dog gets their last $20 a night on that deal. I'm sure they need it. Haha
I definitely know in Stowe, there are many higher end homes that the owners use maybe once or twice a year and rent them out the rest of the time. These same folks probably have a Stowe home and a DV or Aspen home as well. I've got a friend in town who make a very nice living just washing windows on these properties. He works 7 months a year and takes the winters off to ski. Sometimes he stays in town, two winters ago he opted to hang in Big Sky for the winter and he's done some BC destinations too. He's been at it for 25 years and says these types of vacation use scenarios have always existed. Used to be local realtors, now VRBO and the like.
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Not many. Diamond Peak in Tahoe comes to mind. That area of the lake is fancy. I think Telluride and Revelstoke are pretty insulated. Both are really far from population centers and are either hard or expensive to get to. Crested Butte probably falls into that bucket, too. AZ Snowbowl is independent and near Flagstaff, which I hear is nice. Powder Mountain, UT?
Who knows though - the super rich would probably just visit their DV house less frequently or sell it and buy a yacht instead.
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abc
Well-known member
My problem with the development of this thread is, while crowds is clearly a problem in the mega-resorts, somehow it’s become more a problem for the “posh” resorts diluting their “exclusivity“?
I suggest those paying a “premium” for exclusivity are just deluding themselves.
If you like the mountain, and can afford it? By all means buy in and enjoy it. But don’t for a minute expect it to remain that way for decades (or even years) to come. As long as you don’t own (at least shares of) the mountain, it could change next year!
That said, chances are pretty good for these “premium” destinations to remain desirable whatever the change. So you’re unlikely to lose whatever money you put into it.
I suggest those paying a “premium” for exclusivity are just deluding themselves.
If you like the mountain, and can afford it? By all means buy in and enjoy it. But don’t for a minute expect it to remain that way for decades (or even years) to come. As long as you don’t own (at least shares of) the mountain, it could change next year!
That said, chances are pretty good for these “premium” destinations to remain desirable whatever the change. So you’re unlikely to lose whatever money you put into it.
KustyTheKlown
Well-known member
aint nothing upscale about the town of revelstoke bc.
Agreed. This is a risk you take when you buy real estate - and it's true anywhere. There's no guarantee that your ski area will stay in business, and there's no guarantee that your home economy will continue to thrive enough to support the local population or have a job you want to work.
The only really wealthy people I have sympathy for in the skiing real estate scene are the Hermitage people. They paid for a certain private experience and got defrauded. That's not cool no matter how unsympathetic the victims may be.
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Very true. You can't expect places to always remain the same. Though a place like Wildcat in the East has the best shot at it.
I skied Stowe today and vastly prefer what it was like in 95 when I first moved to town. It was modestly more expensive than other VT areas at the time, but the mountain vibe back then was it was very much a ski bums mountain and also a great spot for families. The terrain hasnt changed much since then, but the vibe and crowd very much has. Many of my old ski bum friends have moved on to Smuggs or Sugarbush. As far as a family skiing destination? Unless you are staying at Spruce, there is not a single major resort in the East that sucks more than Stowe does for families with young children learning to ski. That's who got screwed the most with Spruce Peak Village.
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Things have been a little crazy at work plus I'm up in Waltham, MA for the week on a business trip so haven't had time to look at this board much other than from my hotel at night. Sure are a lot of entertaining comments in this thread as I've read through everything posted today. Your question though is an interesting one. Maybe some will stop skiing entirely? I don't know the western market and I'm not going to pretend to know the problems/answers out there. But here in the east, if people legitimately have a problem with "mega-pass" crowds, what is stopping them from skiing the independents here in the East? MRG, Smuggs, Jay, Cannon, Whiteface, Gore, etc are just a few of the larger independents available. Then there are plenty of smaller independents too. People need to speak with their wallets. If there are as many people that strongly favor quality and don't care about price as some claim, then these independents should be able to have no problems attracting more skier visits. In reality mega-passes should be a rather substantial boon to these type of places.
I'm not going to attempt to quote/reply to any other posts as there were just too many. But to go back to "eastern" skiing again (that is what AZ's primary focus is supposed to be), I'm curious from an eastern perspective what real estate markets Jim thinks have been hurt by mega-passes? I've personally overheard several people on lifts at SB recently talking about thinking about buying a condo/home in the MRV. I'm just not seeing people wanting to "flee" because the "mega-pass hoards are coming". I really don't see the mega-pass being a major factor in most eastern ski area real estate markets. To me the "ski resort second home-owner" demographic is very different from people that are completely on board with taking full advantage of a mega pass and jumping around to a different resort every week. Personally you could include 100 additional resorts on my pass and it wouldn't cause much of a difference in my skiing behavior. I like having a "home resort". I like having a "community" where I know people. I like the convenience of just being able to drive up whenever I want and knowing I don't need to hunt around for lodging. I like the convenience of leaving all my ski gear at my condo and not bringing it back and forth with me every week. I fully recognize that there are a lot of people that are NOT like me and don't care about those things and would love the flexibility of going somewhere different every week. They were unlikely to be second homeowners though anyway.
I also think blaming Alterra is silly. If a partner resort skier has a problem with Ikon, they should complain to that particular resort's management. They're the ones to blame. I think many of the rumors were that the initial deals with Alterra were 3 year deals. So the interesting thing to watch will be what happens when it is time to renegotiate those deals. Will places like DV, Alta, JH drop out? I'd also add that some of the "suggestions" for fixing Ikon are a bit ridiculous. "Make Ikon only valid mid-week" just completely negates most of the "value" in the partner resort feature of the pass from Alterra's perspective. If Epic is valid on weekends at all their resorts, Ikon needs to be too in order to compete. Restricting weekends in general just makes no sense from Alterra's POV.
In conclusion, people need to remember that we're only in the 2nd year of having 2 major mega-passes. We'll certainly see corrections and changes as resorts try to balance customer satisfaction appropriately. I think some of that correction will come from us "users" as well. If people are legitimately fed up, they'll go elsewhere and the mega pass owners will see this and take it into account.
Enough rambling from me...
KustyTheKlown
Well-known member
why havent they upgraded the toll house lift and put parking and ski school and etc down there? would be a great beginner's compound.
They need to either do that or convert the mountain ops building adjacent to the Overeasy Gondola into a day lodge, but even that won't address the poor location of the beginner lifts and trails to the lodge at Spruce Peak.
As the father of a four year old, there are two things I value above all else when taking my son skiing. Ease of egress from car to lodge and proximity of beginner lifts and terrain to that lodge. Stowe sucks at both of these features today. Back in the day, there was a considerable amount of parking at Spruce and the lodge was more centered and provided a quicker walk to the beginner lifts / trails.
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