It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

thetrailboss · Jan 2, 2020

flakeydog said:
I would respectfully disagree with this statement. While it conveniently fits the narrative, don't think for a moment that the state of Vermont actually had any significant influence on the business strategy of a multi-national semiconductor manufacturer. When business is good, things are great, downturns and a fundamental global shift in the industry are the root cause of this issue. Not even massive corporate welfare can help- ask the state of New York. They paid $400-500k per job back in the early 2000s. That worked out so well that they just shelled out another $40M to "preserve" the scraps of those very same jobs. Yes, Vermont could do more to attract business but they don't have the deep pockets that other states have for this sort of thing but given the history of some of these deals, that may not be a bad thing.

International pressures are certainly a factor. But the relationship between the State and IBM played a significant role. One example is that NY threw a lot tax incentives to IBM to expand Fishkill. Vermont? Not so much. Additionally, IBM had two big concerns--electricity and access for its employees. Electric rates (set by the State) were very high. Second, remember that project called the Circ Highway? IBM really wanted it. That project, as you know, was killed.

This is an opinion piece, but it does discuss the Circ Highway issue as well as NYS and its efforts.

https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/ibm-the-circ-and-ibm,223944

And yes, it can be expensive to live here but, for me, I am willing to pay that premium. Vermont is a very nice place and like most things in life, nicer stuff costs more.

This reasoning has been used for years by the left in Vermont to justify their policies. I'm interested to hear what you think this "premium" is getting you in Vermont. As someone who is native to there and grew up there, I can tell you that when I go back to visit it is really sad. The middle class is all but gone. Local organizations (one my local ski hills included) can't get enough volunteers to operate. Costs of living, high taxes, and poor job prospects leave many to move out. This is leaving a lot of poor and a few rich people in the State. It also is creating the huge demographic problem that many of us saw ten years ago or so but those in power are only now recognizing. The fact is now that the demographics of the state now make a lot of Vermont's policy decisions simply unsustainable.

Orca · Jan 2, 2020

thetrailboss said:
International pressures are certainly a factor. But the relationship between the State and IBM played a significant role. One example is that NY threw a lot tax incentives to IBM to expand Fishkill. Vermont? Not so much. Additionally, IBM had two big concerns--electricity and access for its employees. Electric rates (set by the State) were very high. Second, remember that project called the Circ Highway? IBM really wanted it. That project, as you know, was killed.

This is an opinion piece, but it does discuss the Circ Highway issue as well as NYS and its efforts.

https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/ibm-the-circ-and-ibm,223944

Circ:
https://www.peaktraffic.org/vermont.html

Vermont is so paralyzed regarding modernization that it couldn't build 16 miles of road.

raisingarizona · Jan 2, 2020

thetrailboss said:
Very true. Count my wife and me as examples of those younger folks who left. A lot of my friends and family who are still there are wondering why they are paying people to live there when they should be reducing the cost of living there for everyone.

Nah, they want to make sure they get all of their money back after you purchase a home there.

gregnye · Jan 2, 2020

Orca said:
Circ:
https://www.peaktraffic.org/vermont.html

Vermont is so paralyzed regarding modernization that it couldn't build 16 miles of road.

No need to build roads if no one is going to use them. Also roads aren't modernization. The interstate highway system is technology from the 50's and 60's.

Now if it was a bullet train or high speed rail that connected burlington to all the ski areas so I could sleep and wake up at the mountain--now that's modernization!

deadheadskier · Jan 2, 2020

Orca said:
Circ:
https://www.peaktraffic.org/vermont.html

Vermont is so paralyzed regarding modernization that it couldn't build 16 miles of road.

I lived in the area from 95 - 2001 and then again 2004-2006. From 97 - 2000 I was a student at UVM. I remember the circ project well. Locals dug their heels in hard on that one. They acted like the circ was their version of Boston 128 going in and that it would absolutely destroy the "charming" character of Williston, Essex and Colchester. Sprawl would follow that roadway and there'd be Walmarts and Home Depots on every corner.

The Williston Taft Corners was a big fight as well. The developers won that one. The big box stores moved in around 99 and that area today looks pretty much the same.

Burlington metro does have potential to see much more economic growth than it has. It's got all the fuel it needs for a young, vibrant, tech based economy. Great Universities, a world class hospital, an airport, highway access and perhaps the best location in New England to be for outdoor enthusiasts to live. Not sure what policy changes need to occur to make that happen. Maybe it's the circ!

Not sure what to do to spur growth elsewhere in the state though. I spent high school in Southern VT. The "big cities" down there are Brattleboro and Rutland. Both are pretty much exactly the same as they were 25 years ago. They lack anchor universities or businesses to ever change.

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EPB · Jan 2, 2020

deadheadskier said:
I lived in the area from 95 - 2001 and then again 2004-2006. From 97 - 2000 I was a student at UVM. I remember the circ project well. Locals dug their heels in hard on that one. They acted like the circ was their version of Boston 128 going in and that it would absolutely destroy the "charming" character of Williston, Essex and Colchester. Sprawl would follow that roadway and there'd be Walmarts and Home Depots on every corner.

The Williston Taft Corners was a big fight as well. The developers won that one. The big box stores moved in around 99 and that area today looks pretty much the same.

Burlington metro does have potential to see much more economic growth than it has. It's got all the fuel it needs for a young, vibrant, tech based economy. Great Universities, a world class hospital, an airport, highway access and perhaps the best location in New England to be for outdoor enthusiasts to live. Not sure what policy changes need to occur to make that happen. Maybe it's the circ!

Not sure what to do to spur growth elsewhere in the state though. I spent high school in Southern VT. The "big cities" down there are Brattleboro and Rutland. Both are pretty much exactly the same as they were 25 years ago. They lack anchor universities or businesses to ever change.

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It's clear over the years we disagree quite a bit on economic policy, but I think we're quite close in alignment on this one. I know many UVM grads from childhood (in southern NH) and I know of only one that stayed in greater Burlington.

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raisingarizona · Jan 2, 2020

Growth is over rated. If anything, humans need to slow down a bit and cut back on consumption

deadheadskier · Jan 2, 2020

eastern powder baby said:
It's clear over the years we disagree quite a bit on economic policy, but I think we're quite close in alignment on this one. I know many UVM grads from childhood (in southern NH) and I know of only one that stayed in greater Burlington.

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Of my UVM friends who wanted to stay in the NVT area, I'd say about 25% of them found a way to make it work and haven't left. They mostly work in Healthcare or Engineering with a few in hospitality. In 1999 I wanted to spend the rest of my life living in that area. By 2001 I was gone. I just couldn't see the earnings potential and cost of living equation working. Came back a second time 04-06 and said now way. Haven't looked back.

Almost none of my Southern VT friends with career motivation are still there. If you're not in healthcare or own a business, forget about it down there.

So, here I am in Southern NH quite satisfied for the past 11 years Recreationally it's not as good as NVT, but the income to COL works for me very well.

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EPB · Jan 2, 2020

deadheadskier said:
Of my UVM friends who wanted to stay in the NVT area, I'd say about 25% of them found a way to make it work and haven't left. They mostly work in Healthcare or Engineering with a few in hospitality. In 1999 I wanted to spend the rest of my life living in that area. By 2001 I was gone. I just couldn't see the earnings potential and cost of living equation working. Came back a second time 04-06 and said now way. Haven't looked back.

Almost none of my Southern VT friends with career motivation are still there. If you're not in healthcare or own a business, forget about it down there.

So, here I am in Southern NH quite satisfied for the past 11 years Recreationally it's not as good as NVT, but the income to COL works for me very well.

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Glad it's working out. Miss southern NH a lot. Maybe one day in the not too distant further southern NH/northern MA will be in play for me again.

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Orca · Jan 2, 2020

raisingarizona said:
Growth is over rated. If anything, humans need to slow down a bit and cut back on consumption

Except that is not how you actually live your life

Orca · Jan 2, 2020

gregnye said:
No need to build roads if no one is going to use them. Also roads aren't modernization. The interstate highway system is technology from the 50's and 60's.

Yeah, but you drive a car for almost any economically-related activity you do (go to work, buy food, shop, etc.), and you need roads to do so

raisingarizona · Jan 2, 2020

Orca said:
Except that is not how you actually live your life

I actually live a pretty simple life but generally speaking you’re right. Humans are programmed for self destruction, like cancer cells hell bent on killing their life support system.

Orca · Jan 2, 2020

raisingarizona said:
I actually live a pretty simple life but generally speaking you’re right. Humans are programmed for self destruction, like cancer cells hell bent on killing their life support system.

Not so very much of that either. We look for direction and purpose, fight nature for survival, seek a modicum of meaning, and if grace allows, do it with lightness and humor --- all the time knowing our limits and vulnerabilities, that we lose everything in the end. Don't be so down on humans. We deserve some compassion.

Orca · Jan 2, 2020

raisingarizona said:
My stepsister is the best kisser in the park bud! Show some respect!

Introduce me. I need a great kisser. I must hang with the wrong crowd.

JimG. · Jan 2, 2020

raisingarizona said:
Growth is over rated. If anything, humans need to slow down a bit and cut back on consumption

This. The herd could use some thinning.

Orca · Jan 2, 2020

"Let’s review:

• Vermont ranked 49th for private sector total compensation (wages and benefits).
• People do not see Vermont as a place where they can have a stable financial future. 40% of young professionals responding to a survey indicated an intention to leave the state, citing low wages and housing challenges.
• Vermont’s workforce has shrunk by 15,000 workers, and our unemployment rate is dangerously low.
• Vermont ranked 33rd for public sector total compensation, showing a growth of 67.7% (vs 7.34% in the private sector).
• Vermont has a $2.3 billion liability in retiree health care benefits for teachers and employees.
• Our minimum payment on those healthcare liabilities will be $205 million in 2020 – an amount that comes right off the top of our budget and grows every year.
• We are under-funding these health plans. In 2020 there will be an $85 million shortfall, a number which will grow unless we make a change.
• An aging population will deflate tax revenues.
• We are also facing a $2 billion obligation for pension benefits.
• Ranked worst in the U.S. for retirement, potentially pushing out even more taxpayers."

-- VT Digger, 14 May 2019

raisingarizona · Jan 2, 2020

Orca said:
Not so very much of that either. We look for direction and purpose, fight nature for survival, seek a modicum of meaning, and if grace allows, do it with lightness and humor --- all the time knowing our limits and vulnerabilities, that we lose everything in the end. Don't be so down on humans. We deserve some compassion.

Oh there’s so much great too, I’m just synical by nature and think we take ourselves a bit too seriously.

BenedictGomez · Jan 3, 2020

cdskier said:
If you're going to make fun of someone else's intelligence, at least don't make numerous simple mistakes in your comments.

Specifically, FBGM made five errors in a fourteen word sentence. Impressive.

BenedictGomez · Jan 3, 2020

thetrailboss said:
FWIW the former IBM plant in Essex Junction is a very small shadow of its former self. IBM moved a lot of its production to Fishkill. The State of Vermont from the 1980's on basically killed that plant and those very good jobs. Same thing with Vermont Yankee.

When I lived in Vermont, Howard Dean basically made it his mission as governor to chase anything that even looked like a potentially successful business, out of state. State of Vermont's policy boiled down to, "businesses are evil, now give us your money".

BenedictGomez · Jan 3, 2020

gregnye said:
No need to build roads if no one is going to use them. Also roads aren't modernization. The interstate highway system is technology from the 50's and 60's.

You've obviously never lived in the area. The Circumferential Highway would be quite useful.

Also, I'm not sure where you're purchasing your flying cars.

gregnye said:
Now if it was a bullet train or high speed rail that connected burlington to all the ski areas so I could sleep and wake up at the mountain--now that's modernization!

Now that's financial ruin!

It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

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