It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

BenedictGomez said:

You've obviously never lived in the area. The Circumferential Highway would be quite useful.

Also, I'm not sure where you're purchasing your flying cars.



Now that's financial ruin!

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Haha why not just wait to see if Google et al. can really deliver autonomous vehicles first and not waste all the upfront capital expenses (and shoulder all the ongoing operating loses) from a train system?

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BenedictGomez said:

You've obviously never lived in the area. The Circumferential Highway would be quite useful.

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Yeah it would. Williston & South Burlington have exploded with housing over the last few years. Lots of development going on, and in Williston much of that is coming in the form of Townhouses. So these areas are packing people into a small area but doing nothing about the infrastructure (i.e. roads). Know what happens then? Traffic. Bad traffic. It's not quite a nightmare yet but it gets worse every year as these units fill up. I have no issues with expanding housing and development in general for that matter. But it has to be done wisely and right now it's not.

"Another year, another projected rise in property tax bill.

An education tax rate letter, released every December through the Vermont Department of Taxes, estimates statewide education spending will grow by $71.5 million during fiscal year 2021.

With this forecasted increase in education spending is a projected 6% increase in the average property tax bill taxpayers should receive by July 2020."

-- Burlington Free Press, 5 December 2019

Perspective - I am a mid-50's flatlander with a second home in SoVt who is seriously thinking of retiring there in the not to distant future. I don't know much yet about the issues with VT, and don't live there, so I appreciate most of the above as it has been enlightening.

As I read the above and other sources about VT, I have been surprised (disappointed) by the tax situation but completely baffled by the flight of young residents and lack of economic opportunity. And when I think of Burlington, I reject the "cold and remote argument" - there are plenty of remote and cold/hot/rainy small cities in the US that are doing just fine. I agree with the statement above that BTV has "Great Universities, a world class hospital, an airport, highway access and perhaps the best location in New England to be for outdoor enthusiasts to live". These are attributes the young people SEEK.

I have to think that not capitalizing on these strengths is a conscious decision of the electorate and government. That is fine, but I do not think it is sustainable....

slatham said:

As I read the above and other sources about VT, I have been surprised (disappointed) by the tax situation but completely baffled by the flight of young residents and lack of economic opportunity.

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This is like saying you're surprised by the high cheesecake consumption, but baffled by the lack of weight loss.

Generally speaking, businesses move to, and flourish in, low tax environs. That's a big part of it.

The other part is the excessive "extra" regulation Vermont foists upon businesses. What start-up in its' right mind would choose Chittenden County to start its' life? The first several years of a new business are crucial to its' success (or quick death). The flight of Vermont youth is in concert with this lack of jobs & opportunity.

Frankly, a lot of the high-paying jobs in Vermont are government jobs (i.e. "fake" economy jobs) which Leahy (to his credit or discredit depending on your perspective) parachuted in. Hell, if you removed government workers making $80,000+ from Vermont the state would go into crisis. There are only 2 states in America with more government jobs per capital (HI & AK). And HI is because it's a tiny state with a huge military presence, and AK is because nobody lives there.

slatham said:

Perspective - I am a mid-50's flatlander with a second home in SoVt who is seriously thinking of retiring there in the not to distant future. I don't know much yet about the issues with VT, and don't live there, so I appreciate most of the above as it has been enlightening.

As I read the above and other sources about VT, I have been surprised (disappointed) by the tax situation but completely baffled by the flight of young residents and lack of economic opportunity. And when I think of Burlington, I reject the "cold and remote argument" - there are plenty of remote and cold/hot/rainy small cities in the US that are doing just fine. I agree with the statement above that BTV has "Great Universities, a world class hospital, an airport, highway access and perhaps the best location in New England to be for outdoor enthusiasts to live". These are attributes the young people SEEK.

I have to think that not capitalizing on these strengths is a conscious decision of the electorate and government. That is fine, but I do not think it is sustainable....

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BTV is a great place to go to school for sure--especially if someone else is footing the bill. The cost for rent is very high and open units are hard to find due to the fact that so many students live in BTV and everyone else is in that area to try to make any decent living. But after a while it starts to feel like a fishbowl as I can personally attest. Opportunities are still pretty limited though.

slatham said:

Perspective - I am a mid-50's flatlander with a second home in SoVt who is seriously thinking of retiring there in the not to distant future. I don't know much yet about the issues with VT, and don't live there, so I appreciate most of the above as it has been enlightening.

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Well, when it comes to housing costs, you're likely part of the problem. The wages even in ChittCo are not, and never will be, on par with the New York or Boston metro areas. Unfortunately, the pressure from flatlanders buying second homes pushes the cost of real estate closer to the metro pricing than to "Real Vermont" pricing (compare somewhere rural and not near skiing, say Corinth, to Granville, let alone Waitsfield, for example).

Yes, the tax and regulatory regimes have a significant impact, but comparing the tax situation here in Maine to that in Vermont, it seems pretty damn similar (significant income tax, significant sales tax, although I'm not sure how the property tax compares because that was hidden as part of rent for me in Vermont). Compared to elsewhere, it seems like Vermont has the tightest rental market I've seen (Maine doesn't seem as bad, and at least the part of Montana I was in was a piece of cake comparatively), providing the greatest incentive to own (rather than rent) while also making it damn near impossible to save up enough to get there on a middle-class income. If you look at all three states—Maine, Vermont and Montana—the tightest real-estate markets tend to be those with the greatest pressure "from away" (Bozeman, I'm looking at you).

Yes, building the Circ would probably be a good thing for traffic flow in ChittCo, and it would have been an even better thing three decades ago. I drove from the New North End to Bolton at least five days a week for a couple of years, and trying to get from the New North End to anywhere south of Burlington is a PITA. I don't doubt that a lot of the engineering work done decades ago is now outdated, but people sitting in idling cars in traffic isn't a good thing for them or their environment.

Some of the tax costs are just a factor of living in a sparsely populated state; it's more efficient to provide services when you have more residents per mile of roadway (think road maintenance, school transport costs, etc). Vermont has a lot of small schools in part because it isn't really productive for kids to spend three hours a day on school buses, and that's what it would take to consolidate a lot of the smaller schools to get more-normal staff-to-student ratios.

Some of the ever-increasing property-tax (i.e. education) cost is driven by health-care costs. Implement single-payer nationally in a manner consistent with what European nations have done, and you can stem that bleeding. Until then, you're going to see continuing increases. The data prove that our way of doing things (with respect to health care) is the most expensive (by far) in the first world, and it doesn't provide the best results. It's also a huge hit on small businesses and a serious disincentive to entrepreneurship, especially if you have any sort of chronic condition or prescription needs.

Vermont does a lot of high-tech industry. Yes, losing the chip fab and related jobs hurts, particularly given that a lot of those positions were well-funded, stable and long-term. But I don't think you can throw a rock around Burlington without it landing near a tech company, and the availability of real broadband (i.e. fiber) far outpaces most states with similar quality of life and access to mountains and forests.

At the end of the day, I'd be running numbers real carefully before moving back, particularly given that my wife is a teacher and the current changes in the Vermont schools could make a huge difference in employment opportunities for her, but a lot of the structural issues with the economy parallel shifts (and issues) in the national economy.

"Property Taxes: Vermont is the fifth highest state, with a mean effective property tax rate of 1.70% on owner-occupied homes (The Informed Vermonter pays way more than this in Randolph)

Individual Income Taxes: Vermont is the fifth highest state with a top marginal tax rate of 8.95%

Corporate Taxes: Vermont is the eighth highest state, with a top marginal tax rate of 8.5%

Sales Tax: Vermont is the 36th highest state with a 6% sales tax rate."

-- The Informed Vermonter, 29 September 2017

Orca said:

"Property Taxes: Vermont is the fifth highest state, with a mean effective property tax rate of 1.70% on owner-occupied homes (The Informed Vermonter pays way more than this in Randolph)

Individual Income Taxes: Vermont is the fifth highest state with a top marginal tax rate of 8.95%

Corporate Taxes: Vermont is the eighth highest state, with a top marginal tax rate of 8.5%

Sales Tax: Vermont is the 36th highest state with a 6% sales tax rate."

-- The Informed Vermonter, 29 September 2017

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...so it is the property tax that's actually significantly higher, at least according to that article. Vermont may be in the top ten on those first three categories, but if you compare the per-capita numbers to US average per-capita numbers, it's $2,609 per capita vs $2,519 per capita for the national average. That's not particularly significant, although it may diverge more based on income level (Vermont gets dinged in several articles for a high maximum marginal rate, but that doesn't kick in until you're talking $195k/yr in income, where Montana and Idaho, to pick two, both get into their maximum brackets under $20k/yr.

Property tax (state & local), however, is $2,342 vs $1,451 for national average. As noted in the linked article, that's 61%.

That also doesn't delve into things like vehicle registration fees and whatnot that are effectively use taxes but a bit harder to compute. My gut feeling is that Vermont is probably better than southern New England in that regard and a whole lot worse than Rocky mountain states (I know it is for motorcycle and trailer registration, at least).

VT is really cheap to register a car at least compared with NH or Maine

https://dmv.vermont.gov/registrations/fees

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Orca said:

"Property Taxes: Vermont is the fifth highest state, with a mean effective property tax rate of 1.70% on owner-occupied homes (The Informed Vermonter pays way more than this in Randolph)

Individual Income Taxes: Vermont is the fifth highest state with a top marginal tax rate of 8.95%

Corporate Taxes: Vermont is the eighth highest state, with a top marginal tax rate of 8.5%

Sales Tax: Vermont is the 36th highest state with a 6% sales tax rate."

-- The Informed Vermonter, 29 September 2017

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Orca, what exactly is your point here??

You started this thread off referencing an article that was actually quite positive and described VT's program that to many people actually ought to make a lot of sense. In essence, it said, that if you want to move to really nice state and perhaps bring a job with you (my understanding from a different source on that subject),VT welcomes you.

You're carping about high taxes in VT, which if compared to a bunch of other states, are not really all that bad. There is plenty of other states with higher taxes and higher living expenses, but I don't hear you bitching about NY, NJ or CT, just to name a few.

You offer a half baked conclusion that is far form supported that business flee VT because of leftist politics, yet there is plenty of startups and thriving high techs/biotechs doing very well in high tax/high cost of living states. So obviously, there is more to that picture than the right wing boilerplate demagoguery of "high taxes kill business".

There a plenty of places in the US where taxes are low, and what you get is well, you get what you pay for... Let's just say, I would not even want to visit some of those, much less live there.

The question worth asking is what do you get for the taxes paid. The article which was your point of origin actually points out quite a few nice things about VT (see the included link in that article). Perhaps people ought to have a look at that article rather than carp about VT.

The common thread of where tech excels does have less to do with taxes and COL than it does availability of talent and proximity to cities / entertainment.

Burlington has UVM and St Michaels, which are decent schools, but certainly won't be confused with the talent factories of schooling in Boston, NYC, DC, Austin, San Fran etc.

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deadheadskier said:

The common thread of where tech excels does have less to do with taxes and COL than it does availability of talent and proximity to cities / entertainment.

Burlington has UVM and St Michaels, which are decent schools, but certainly won't be confused with the talent factories of schooling in Boston, NYC, DC, Austin, San Fran etc.

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Those Cities are not comps to BTV. What about (and I am asking a question, I don't know) Eugene OR, Portland OR, Portland ME, Boulder CO, Boise ID, Grand Rapids MI, Santa Fe NM, and many other small Cities highly ranked by "attractiveness" by various periodicals?

No they're not, which is kind of the point. BVT doesn't offer enough density of talent nor big city attributes to draw tech companies to set up shop there. Boulder certainly does due to its proximity to Denver.

When I left Burlington, it was actually for Portland, ME. The cost of living was lower and earnings higher. Probably still the case. I think Portland benefits from being close enough to Boston to draw some talent up there and generally speaking people tend to be more attracted to the coast than mountains. Not sure what the reason, but Portland has a pretty strong insurance industry. Unum is probably the largest employer in the area outside of Maine Medical Center and there are a number of smaller specialty insurance companies. Idexx is a decent tech company there, but that's about it. Some decent sized law firms too.

Can't speak to the other areas as I've not been to them

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I must say, I like the conversation here. Full disclosure, I was born here, raised here, went to public school here (gasp), educated here (under-grad and graduate), been employed here (from small biz to full on corporate) and now raising children here so I am probably biased.

A few points:
1) we prob should have the Circ but the demise of IBM had nothing to do with that (I will stop beating that dead horse now, sorry)
2) I am fully aware that I could make 2-3x my salary elsewhere but-
- my kids would prob have to be in private school
- my house would cost twice as much
- I would not be able to live the lifestyle I have now
3) it is really nice here (referring to the Chittenden/Washington county area)
- I can ski 40-50 days
- my kids have access to a great education
- I have all the benefits of a small, tight knit community
- I have lake Champlain at my disposal all summer
- I have found employment that matches my education level
- healthcare here is world class
4) other nice things here:
- 99% of people have health insurance (yes it is expensive, but good for society at large)
- public education here is good (see above comment)
- one of the healthiest states in the country
- while it can be a pain in the ass, Vermont does not look the way it does by accident, there is something to be said about Vermont’s approach to growth and development (I have been to a lot of other places and Vermont is quite unique in this sense)
- proximity to other places ( Montreal, Boston, NYC). We can be rural without being isolated.
5) it’s not all perfect
- low population density- a blessing (small towns) and a curse (makes everything expensive)
- high taxes (but good education and we take care of our fellow Vermonters)
- employment can be tough (but there are opportunities out there)
- finding employees is tough ( we need to attract more workers for sure)

Bottom line is I can live very well here on a decent salary in a vacation paradise and still be productive in life and raise kids. What could be better than that? Virtually anywhere else that has this kind of access to outdoor recreation (skiing, hiking, boating, fishing, hunting, etc) is expensive, devoid of legit job opportunities, isolated from quality cultural and medical facilities, or is not a great place to live year round.

That “premium” I spoke of before is the quality of life here, it has value. I would have to be a very wealthy man to live this way anywhere else.

Bumpsis said:

Orca, what exactly is your point here??

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I am not picking on Vermont; I am picking on Vermont's government for its harmful choices.

Orca said:

I am not picking on Vermont; I am picking on Vermont's government for its harmful choices.

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Who elects this government? The government doesn't get created by itself. The people of the state elect them to do what the majority of the voters want.

Smellytele said:

Who elects this government? The government doesn't get created by itself. The people of the state elect them to do what the majority of the voters want.

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Nationally, about 8% of voters are vocal far left and 6% are vocal far right. The remaining 86% are relatively quiet and are fairly mainstream centrist. Do you think that our national government is doing what the majority of voters want? Do you think the presidential candidates' positions are representative of the majority?

Orca said:

Nationally, about 8% of voters are vocal far left and 6% are vocal far right. The remaining 86% are relatively quiet and are fairly mainstream centrist. Do you think that our national government is doing what the majority of voters want? Do you think the presidential candidates' positions are representative of the majority?

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Better of 2 evils type of voting.
I guess people get pigeon holed into voting by party and VT has a majority of liberal leaning voters (happens the other way in red states). With that said you get what you pay for.

Alaska has to pay people to move to Alaska too (provided they stay one year and are not seasonal). Where's the uproar about that?

Let's be real. The future of employment lies within Urban Areas. It's why Boston is so expensive to live. It's why Somerville and Cambridge Mass has a bunch of young people and Vermont and New Hampshire do not.

New Hampshire just steals off of Boston's success. I bet if we removed the entire 93 corridor from Salem NH to Concord NH, the rest of NH would be in a similar state as Vermont economy-wise. The rest of NH is just tourism in the White Mountains, some box stores in Lebanon, and whatever happens in Keene.

For those in Vermont that don't want to pay taxes, simply move to New Hampshire! It's not like we are in the midwest where every state takes 8 hours to drive through.