It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

Edd said:

Comparing post 143 to 157 and suggesting that they’re similar in tone and anger is a false equivalency. I suspect you know that.

Click to expand...

The fact that 143 was over the line of what I'd consider "fired up" doesn't mean that 157 wasn't also fired up. They lost the credibility to throw stones. I trust you understand the logical consistency there, too.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app

We need some new snow. Taking deep breaths is much easier after a spirited run through trees or carving up some nice turns on an open slope

"Greece wanted to be prosperous without being competitive. It wanted to run a five-star welfare state with a two-star economy. It wanted modernity without efficiency or transparency, and wealth without work. It wanted control over its own destiny—while someone else picked up the check."

-- Bret Stephens, WSJ, 6 July 2015

Remind you of Vermont today?

Orca said:

"Greece wanted to be prosperous without being competitive. It wanted to run a five-star welfare state with a two-star economy. It wanted modernity without efficiency or transparency, and wealth without work. It wanted control over its own destiny—while someone else picked up the check."

-- Bret Stephens, WSJ, 6 July 2015

Remind you of Vermont today?

Click to expand...

A lot of old Vermonters would be ashamed of this reputation. Vermont used to be a state where folks were very self-sufficient and did not want hand-outs. Hard work was a virtue.

Method9455 said:

Vermont is never going to be competitive for things like manufacturing, with or without changes in government policy.

Click to expand...

FWIW Vermont used to be a leader in manufacturing. We're talking many years (decades) ago actually. Lots of mill towns with water power became manufacturing hubs. Springfield is one. My home town of Lyndon at one time had at least four or five companies manufacturing tools, aerospace items, automobile parts, electrical items, etc. We're talking about several HUNDRED good paying jobs in a town of 5,000 people or so. Many of my friends' parents worked these type of jobs and could afford their families a decent quality of life, and a lot of folks did not need more than a high school degree. Today Lyndon has lost ALL of those manufacturers--the most recent being Vermont Tap and Die which was a staple in the town and had its large facility right downtown in plain sight. It now is a rotting shell. There are still a few smaller manufacturers here and there (we're talking 20 or so jobs each). And Weidmann still is in St. Jay, but that is it.

In the 1980's and 1990's two big things happened. On the macro scale, globalization shifted those jobs to other countries or the south. On the micro scale, the State was headed by a liberal governor who put people into power at ANR and other agencies that took a punitive approach on environmental regulations. So these manufacturers who had been operating for many decades and had contamination on their sites suddenly found themselves in the crosshairs of aggressive enforcement actions and hefty fines, penalties, etc. Some feel that the approach should have been more of a carrot approach in order to keep these jobs and employers in place. A large number of these companies closed and/or moved as a result. A lot of them would publicly say that it was global pressures, etc. However, in private it was widely said that the State did a good job of pushing them out by being so punitive.

And folks have talked about the landscape and how it is "preserved". That is in part thanks to Act 250. What folks DON'T realize is that when that was debated and enacted in 1970 or so ONLY the regulatory and punitive portions were implemented. The scheme anticipated a "Statewide" plan as to where development could occur and what it would look like. As is typical this more "positive" side of the plan never got implemented. So when folks grumble about the negative aspects of Act 250 it is because the positive portions never got implemented.

I'll admit to not having explored the issue of "state economic health" that closely. However, I would think that there aren't many states that would qualify as in great shape.

It seems that folks want good opportunity, clean air, low taxes, good healthcare, good education, etc. etc. Is there a state where all boxes are checked? I can't think of one.

thetrailboss said:

FWIW Vermont used to be a leader in manufacturing. We're talking many years (decades) ago actually. Lots of mill towns with water power became manufacturing hubs. Springfield is one. My home town of Lyndon at one time had at least four or five companies manufacturing tools, aerospace items, automobile parts, electrical items, etc. We're talking about several HUNDRED good paying jobs in a town of 5,000 people or so. Many of my friends' parents worked these type of jobs and could afford their families a decent quality of life, and a lot of folks did not need more than a high school degree.

Click to expand...

I do wonder if something is missing there.

Would those jobs requiring "no more than a high school degree" be done as well by worker having only elementary school degree?

Or, would what was "no more than a high school degree" 20 years ago is maybe a college degree today?

There're jobs unfilled today, albeit in the cities. But those jobs requires MORE THAN high school degrees. Many of those "city" job can indeed be done out in the middle of nowhere, as long as the workers are "skilled".

See #2 on the list

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/best-cities-for-jobs-list-2020-wallethub

mikec142 said:

I'll admit to not having explored the issue of "state economic health" that closely. However, I would think that there aren't many states that would qualify as in great shape.

Click to expand...

The states in worst shape generally have massive unfunded government pension liabilities.

If you're state avoided that idiocy, they're probably okay.

tumbler said:

See #2 on the list

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/best-cities-for-jobs-list-2020-wallethub

Click to expand...

Vermont has dangerously low unemployment: jobs are going unfilled because of an absence of workers. This condition has been caused by working age people leaving the state for greener pastures and too few working age people moving into the state. Just because a job opportunity exists doesn't mean that it is an economically good choice for an individual choose to live in the vicinity and take it.

"...-the most recent being Vermont Tap and Die..."

The MTB trail of the same name also recently "lost". Not the same but still heartbreaking:x

"It wanted to run a five-star welfare state with a two-star economy."

This one line sticks in my head. I can't think of a better, more pithy description of the Vermont governmental approach.

Agree on the lack of transparency of pricing in healthcare. On the system we utilize we have to pay cash 1st then get reimbursed. Generally it is 40-50% less expensive. We are out of cash for 60-90 days.

I assume they ( hospital/Dr./pharmacy) are not getting MSRP either. It's worse than buying a car, but there we have choices. Ability to shop and compare isn't the same in a rigged system - regulated by government officials, most of whom are not schooled in economics or medical practice. I'm merely suggesting that government apply same laws to all businesses and those laws should be few and far between.

A lot of those pricing schemes are fraud. Last time I will mention this, but effective governance consists of those who govern being held to the same systems they impose on the populace they represent. They do not in federal government and many states ( NH wins in this case - its one of the best forms of representation)

No, never lived outside the US - just have a lot of family/friends and customers who have/do/did. And if we are so behind why are so many people still wanting to come here? If I lived in some of those places ( central America/part of Mexico, middle east - so would I - I get that.)



No anger in that post, just things as I see them. Of course we have poor and lower middle class. They have the best ability of any country in the world of climbing out with a free and open system. Its never going to be perfect but US of A is the closest any country has ever come.


Fine to ease up too. I'd just rather hear from people I don't see eye to eye with than echo chambers, so I appreciate the differences of opinions.

For anyone living in the UK - here is where I believe they have an advantage over US - if this is true - because I believe it adds trememdously to the cost of living, especially healthcare. If you sue someone and loose, you must pay for your legal costs as well as the party you are litigating against. That true? If so, some of the tv ads might go away real fast.

Weather is depressing but I'm hopeful Sunday is a lot more of the frozen type to start building back - we may lose a lot of base and woods will be out of the question if the pattern they claim is coming holds true.

tumbler said:

See #2 on the list

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/best-cities-for-jobs-list-2020-wallethub

Click to expand...

Where exactly is South Burlington, Virginia?

BenedictGomez said:

The states in worst shape generally have massive unfunded government pension liabilities.

If you're state avoided that idiocy, they're probably okay.

Click to expand...

NJ here...

But again...I can't think of one state that checks all the "good" boxes. So in NJ, we have good access to healthcare, good education, good access to jobs and opportunity. But we have terrible property taxes, income taxes, and tons of underfunded pension liabilities. We can debate the clean air/environment but I lean towards the negative side of that one.

mikec142 said:

NJ here...

But again...I can't think of one state that checks all the "good" boxes. So in NJ, we have good access to healthcare, good education, good access to jobs and opportunity. But we have terrible property taxes, income taxes, and tons of underfunded pension liabilities. We can debate the clean air/environment but I lean towards the negative side of that one.

Click to expand...

It’s also extremely crowded and the traffic is a nightmare.

I left that behind 26 years ago and I’ve never looked back. It’s a different world all together where people have a completely different focus.

raisingarizona said:

It’s also extremely crowded and the traffic is a nightmare.

Click to expand...

No argument from me on those issues.

As I was saying, I can't think of any state that only checks the good boxes. Most are a mix of good and bad. Some are predominately bad.

raisingarizona said:

It’s a different world all together where people have a completely different focus.

Click to expand...

That's important.

Even the definition of "good box" or "bad box" doesn't need to be the same for every state. How do you have low tax and good infrastructure? How about good education and low tax?

Everyone complain about the health care "situation" in this country. But you know how much employment the drug companies provide? The biotech industry employs? And the portion of GDP they make up? Sure, the health care "system" is broken. But take care not to throw the baby out with the bath water! (Which seems Vermont did exactly THAT!)

smac75 said:

"...-the most recent being Vermont Tap and Die..."

The MTB trail of the same name also recently "lost". Not the same but still heartbreaking:x

Click to expand...

Wow. What a sad coincidence.

Orca said:

Vermont has dangerously low unemployment: jobs are going unfilled because of an absence of workers. This condition has been caused by working age people leaving the state for greener pastures and too few working age people moving into the state. Just because a job opportunity exists doesn't mean that it is an economically good choice for an individual choose to live in the vicinity and take it.

Click to expand...

Bingo