It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

Orca · Jan 23, 2020

I applaud wanting to fund schools well and educate students properly. Great idea. Unfortunately, Vermont wants a first-rate education system funded by a third-rate economy. Perhaps the action shouldn't be to de-fund the education system. Perhaps the action the government should take is to start implementing business-friendly policies.

This is just a special case of Vermont's problem. It wants a first-rate (insert favorite government service or regulation) based on a third-rate economy. Just doesn't work.

1dog · Jan 23, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
Most expensive in America, but at least our teachers are I think the 2nd highest paid (IIRC, Connecticut is #1).

In Vermont, teachers dont make crap, so where the hell's the money going?!?!

If money solved problems like education we'd have it all fixed. Old data but #1 in 1960's now 23rd ( of industrialized countries) yet 3x cost per student compared to some of those other countries ahead of us.

Why do we still think money ( and money alone) solves problems.

1. not always true
2. when it isn't earned or raised close to home, its not allocated properly.
3. when will we every hear from any agency ' we have enough, don't need anymore' ( we all know answer)

Consider we have more people who don't speak English in schools and SPED takes a lot of $$ from 'regular kids' so $20K per sounds like a lot - it is - but SPED might get $29K while the regs get the left overs.

If you can't hold teachers accountable for performance - and now they ( to their credit) have to deal with unreasonable parents, and kids who have no respect for authority- hence unreasonable parenting) and of course, 'my Jonny is special'

competition will make 'em all better - but unions only want choice in some things, not school choice.

Bring back truant schools and actual punishment or expel those who refuse to comply. Unlikely given our culture of ' we can never let our kids be exposed to dissapointment or failure. We all know thoise experiences teach nothing, riiiiight???

BenedictGomez · Jan 23, 2020

1dog said:
If money solved problems like education we'd have it all fixed.

Oh, I know, it's not all about money at all.

The point I was trying to get across is that at least NJ pays its' teachers well for the egregiously high education spending, whereas my Vermonter teacher wife fled Vermont because a starting (college educated mind you) teacher there made only $35,000. So if Vermont is spending ungodly $$$$ on education, where the hell is it all going? With NJ, it's easy to figure it out.

Another example of it not being all about money, but in reverse, would be Utah. I believe they are something like bottom-ten in America in spending & something like top-ten in America in education results.

1dog said:
now they ( to their credit) have to deal with unreasonable parents, and kids who have no respect for authority- hence unreasonable parenting) and of course, 'my Jonny is special'

thetrailboss · Jan 23, 2020

Orca said:
I applaud wanting to fund schools well and educate students properly. Great idea. Unfortunately, Vermont wants a first-rate education system funded by a third-rate economy. Perhaps the action shouldn't be to de-fund the education system. Perhaps the action the government should take is to start implementing business-friendly policies.

This is just a special case of Vermont's problem. It wants a first-rate (insert favorite government service or regulation) based on a third-rate economy. Just doesn't work.

Exactly.

thetrailboss · Jan 23, 2020

gregnye said:
I always find it interesting how many people make an argument against funding schools. Funding education is in our best interest to further advance society. And I don't know about you, but living with smarter people is always a good thing.

We need our children to be educated to accurately evaluate and draw conclusions from factual information, now more than ever, as it seems that the current US government wishes to keep their voting base uneducated and misinformed, easy to manipulate.

That's a red herring. Nobody is arguing that. As DHS said, the issue is the outcome. There is a lot of data that shows that despite the money invested the outcomes are only average at best.

thetrailboss · Jan 23, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
Oh, I know, it's not all about money at all.

The point I was trying to get across is that at least NJ pays its' teachers well for the egregiously high education spending, whereas my Vermonter teacher wife fled Vermont because a starting (college educated mind you) teacher there made only $35,000. So if Vermont is spending ungodly $$$$ on education, where the hell is it all going? With NJ, it's easy to figure it out.

Another example of it not being all about money, but in reverse, would be Utah. I believe they are something like bottom-ten in America in spending & something like top-ten in America in education results.

View attachment 26052

Honestly, Utah is certainly not a poster child for education. For all the talk about family values, the dollar is all that matters here.

prsboogie · Jan 23, 2020

1dog said:
Bring back truant schools and actual punishment or expel those who refuse to comply. Unlikely given our culture of ' we can never let our kids be exposed to dissapointment or failure. We all know thoise experiences teach nothing, riiiiight???

This^^^^

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app

spring_mountain_high · Jan 23, 2020

thetrailboss said:
That's a red herring. Nobody is arguing that. As DHS said, the issue is the outcome. There is a lot of data that shows that despite the money invested the outcomes are only average at best.

sounds exactly like our healthcare system! where does all the money go? in the case of healthcare, industry execs and admin ...in the case of education, admin and insane pensions. i think we can all agree we could do both better and more efficiently in this country, regardless of how you think that happens.

BenedictGomez · Jan 23, 2020

spring_mountain_high said:
sounds exactly like our healthcare system! where does all the money go? in the case of healthcare, industry execs and admin

Just the slightest bit of education on domestic healthcare expenditures would tell you that CEO, other executive pay, and admin pay cannot possibly be where "the money goes" in the multi-trillion dollar US healthcare system. Stop believing everything Moveon.org & Daily Kos tell you. Good grief.

bdfreetuna · Jan 23, 2020

spring_mountain_high said:
sounds exactly like our healthcare system! where does all the money go? in the case of healthcare, industry execs and admin ...in the case of education, admin and insane pensions. i think we can all agree we could do both better and more efficiently in this country, regardless of how you think that happens.

My family participates in a a Christian Healthcare Ministry / cost-share plan, we pay about $460 a month for all 3 of us. We never go to doctor unless we're actually really sick or injured. I specifically inquired if ski injuries will be covered, they said absolutely, 100%. It's also got hundreds of thousands of members and A+ reviews all around. This amounts to a 60%+ savings over the nearest competitive RomneyCare plan.

This plan also makes hospitals charge less because you choose the "pay out of pocket" option, which means they give you a lower price, then you get a check for that amount from the cost-share plan.

BenedictGomez · Jan 23, 2020

thetrailboss said:
Utah is certainly not a poster child for education.
For all the talk about family values, the dollar is all that matters here.

I remember you telling me you felt compelled to put your kids in private school because you thought the public school system was so lacking. But I'm just talking about the data versus other state's data, which if believed show that while it's true Utah is terribly underfunded education-wise, yet Utah results aren't near the worst in America despite that underfunding. Also, you were (are?) living in the city, right? I'd speculate places on the Wasatch Back don't tolerate spending peanuts on their kids, as people who can afford $450k to $1M+ homes typically don't.

Or, alternatively, if I'm wrong about this currently, I believe there'll be a seismic change soon in that regard given all the wealth moving into the Back. I was last there in April, and driving from Midway / south Heber City through Francis, Kamas, and then back to PC through Hideout, it was STAGGERING the development going on in that ~ 20 mile ring. And I'm talking really nice new homes, starkly juxtaposed against the long-term existing houses which were anywhere from poor looking to charitably middle class. These new people I think are going to demand better & brand new schools to replace 1970s structures with mobile classrooms. My 2¢ prediction anyway.

bdfreetuna · Jan 23, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
I remember you telling me you felt compelled to put your kids in private school because you thought the public school system was so lacking. But I'm just talking about the data versus other state's data, which if believed show that while it's true Utah is terribly underfunded education-wise, yet Utah results aren't near the worst in America despite that underfunding.

That's because Mormons have several Moms to handle the home schooling on the side. Even when that's not the case, religious families tend to place more of the weight of educating kids on themselves. Atheists on the other hand probably most reliant on the state.

NOT starting a religious debate but this is objective reality.

snoseek · Jan 23, 2020

bdfreetuna said:
That's because Mormons have several Moms to handle the home schooling on the side. Even when that's not the case, religious families tend to place more of the weight of educating kids on themselves. Atheists on the other hand probably most reliant on the state.

NOT starting a religious debate but this is objective reality.

If true that would explain a lot

1dog · Jan 23, 2020

bdfreetuna said:
My family participates in a a Christian Healthcare Ministry / cost-share plan, we pay about $460 a month for all 3 of us. We never go to doctor unless we're actually really sick or injured. I specifically inquired if ski injuries will be covered, they said absolutely, 100%. It's also got hundreds of thousands of members and A+ reviews all around. This amounts to a 60%+ savings over the nearest competitive RomneyCare plan.

This plan also makes hospitals charge less because you choose the "pay out of pocket" option, which means they give you a lower price, then you get a check for that amount from the cost-share plan.

Same Tuna - $490 a month for family of 4 - $240 a year for Brothers Keeper plan if something goes over $1M for any or all in family.

Ask you don't drink to excess and are not a smoker - imagine, managing risk - that government programs won't allow private insurers to do.

All my doc visits and procedures are 40-50% of list because there is NO PAPER work ( coding, waiting, and frankly, they don't get the list from insurance companies anyway - but they have a huge expense in bureaucracy mandated by government.)

my regular $4000 p/p deductible I left? $2500 per month. And. . .I can go anywhere to any dr.
Not insurance - health sharing expense plan.

bdfreetuna · Jan 23, 2020

1dog said:
Same Tuna

Cheers Mate, well since we know who's going to be paying our bills, let's try and avoid ski injuries this season, ok?

spring_mountain_high · Jan 23, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
Just the slightest bit of education on domestic healthcare expenditures would tell you that CEO, other executive pay, and admin pay cannot possibly be where "the money goes" in the multi-trillion dollar US healthcare system. Stop believing everything Moveon.org & Daily Kos tell you. Good grief.

educate us, charlie brown, where does it go? why is it we spend the most and have something like the 26th best outcomes?? i'm absolutely sure it has nothing to do with healthcare as a 'for-profit' scheme and is really the fault of all those welfare mamas and illegal immigrants. try taking a break from breitbart. the worms in your brain might starve.

mister moose · Jan 24, 2020

spring_mountain_high said:
educate us, charlie brown, where does it go? why is it we spend the most and have something like the 26th best outcomes?? i'm absolutely sure it has nothing to do with healthcare as a 'for-profit' scheme and is really the fault of all those welfare mamas and illegal immigrants. try taking a break from breitbart. the worms in your brain might starve.

Because of a lack of across state lines competition, a lack of transparent pricing of medical services and drug pricing, practices of giving incentives to physicians from drug companies, and price controls and kickbacks on drugs by insurance companies, it is not a free, open, and competitive marketplace.

There is nothing wrong with profit, it pays your salary. Profit provides incentive to do more, to do better. If you remove profit, you remove incentive - a very bad idea. The problem is with the incestuous relationships in the industry that Washington has to date been unwilling to shine daylight on. Any guesses on why that is?

bdfreetuna · Jan 24, 2020

spring_mountain_high said:
educate us, charlie brown, where does it go? why is it we spend the most and have something like the 26th best outcomes?? i'm absolutely sure it has nothing to do with healthcare as a 'for-profit' scheme and is really the fault of all those welfare mamas and illegal immigrants. try taking a break from breitbart. the worms in your brain might starve.

Not really a "nuance person", are you?

BenedictGomez · Jan 24, 2020

bdfreetuna said:
Not really a "nuance person", are you?

Ugh... not even bothering replying to him. A $3.6 TRILLION expenditure accounting for about 20% of GDP of the planet's #1 economy, and he honestly thinks it's because of CEO/COO pay & "admin" making $160,000 a year. Weapon's grade ignorance borne from swallowing propaganda. 10 to 1 odds he's a Bernie fan.

bdfreetuna · Jan 24, 2020

BenedictGomez said:
10 to 1 odds he's a Bernie fan.

Kyle Jurek walks among us.... JUUUST KIDDING

It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

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