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Day ticket rates vs Pass Prices

Smellytele

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All those pass holders are increasing revenue. But also increasing skier volume by skiing more days. The question becomes is the mountain capacity there? Indications are that some areas are showing stress: parking, long lift lines.

Not so sure it increase revenue per ski area but for the company overall yes.


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machski

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All those pass holders are increasing revenue. But also increasing skier volume by skiing more days. The question becomes is the mountain capacity there? Indications are that some areas are showing stress: parking, long lift lines.
Increasing volume I would argue when conditions are primo only. I think that was spelled out well at Crystal. They had no issues with traffic or parking until they started getting nuked on. Then everyone and everything came out of the woodwork. I would tend to argue a regular non holiday period ski day absent recent big snows would not draw the same levels of stress, Ikon/Epic areas or not.

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thetrailboss

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Increasing volume I would argue when conditions are primo only. I think that was spelled out well at Crystal. They had no issues with traffic or parking until they started getting nuked on. Then everyone and everything came out of the woodwork. I would tend to argue a regular non holiday period ski day absent recent big snows would not draw the same levels of stress, Ikon/Epic areas or not.

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We've ALWAYS had periods of time when it snows a lot and crowding was never an issue of this magnitude. What is the only thing that has changed in two years? Four letters-- I-K-O-N.
 

machski

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Sorry, I just do not buy that argument for LCC. It has added so.e, but that canyon for years before Ikon has been nuts on big powder days and especially big powder weekend days. Now BCC, that was always quieter pre Ikon. Since, that Canyon has gone insane (which should be expected with Unlimited days up there).

Since Ikon is limited to 5 or 7 days TOTAL up LCC, I would be very interested to know how many Bird/Alta season passes are sold each year. To me, that would have a far GREATER pact to the traffic and parking up LCC than Ikon. Just doing the math here....

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BenedictGomez

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Since Ikon is limited to 5 or 7 days TOTAL up LCC, I would be very interested to know how many Bird/Alta season passes are sold each year. To me, that would have a far GREATER pact to the traffic and parking up LCC than Ikon. Just doing the math here....

You act as if 7 days per person isnt a big deal, it's HUGE when you're talking about a ski area sitting on top of a 1.3M population.

I'd speculate many of those people were greatly spread out among ski areas in the past, now it's an absolute no-brainer to buy IKON if you live within an hour or so of there.
 

bdfreetuna

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I'd speculate many of those people were greatly spread out among ski areas in the past, now it's an absolute no-brainer to buy IKON if you live within an hour or so of there.

Probably. I'm thinking the combo cards, "Indy Passes" and discount deals might improve on the non-conglomerated resorts in the near future. They are going to see losses and provide some deep incentives to win back customers.

Good for me, we'll see. Bad for a lot of mountains I like, probably.
 

abc

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3) if you're concerned about CO2 and believe it's related to temps, do you support the plan to plant "one trillion trees" as a (I would say) common-sense and widely agreeable way to "sequester carbon" and generally improve the ecosystem?
Ask your carbon emission question to whom you want to piss!

I’ve never even use the word “carbon” in any of my AZ post for the last year!
 

cdskier

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^you can generally get around that by opening in a private/incognito browser.

Sadly I've seen a lot of websites where that used to work that now have caught on and say "we noticed you're browsing in private mode, please turn off private mode to continue" and won't display the page until you return to normal mode (in which case then you hit the paywall/article limit).
 

BenedictGomez

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Hmmmm.....

The popularity of IKON and Epic passes have ski resorts cutting off weekend sales at the windows and warning crowds on social media to stay home.

SKI AREA MANAGEMENT: Alert! There is a turd in the punchbowl! REPEAT. There is a turd in the punchbowl! Do not fall out-of-line. Stay on message & keep repeating that IKON & EPIC do not lead to huge crowding. State instead that it is the amazing ski conditions that can be found coast to coast. Over.
 

Orca

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From NYT article:

"In some resort communities new to the Ikon Pass, local gripes last winter grew sharp. Frustrations were so vocal in Jackson and Big Sky, Mont., that resort executives published open letters to their communities, pledging to do better in handling the crowds."

And there are lots more cited instances of crowding: A-Basin, Deer Valley, Eldora, as well as the Crystal Mountain example cited.

" “It’s a very imperfect science, pairing demand with snow and terrain,” said Rusty Gregory, chief executive of Denver-based Alterra Mountain Co., which owns Crystal. “Each resort has to do what’s right for its conditions and its skiers.” "

Alterra is aware of this.
 

thetrailboss

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Sorry, I just do not buy that argument for LCC. It has added so.e, but that canyon for years before Ikon has been nuts on big powder days and especially big powder weekend days. Now BCC, that was always quieter pre Ikon. Since, that Canyon has gone insane (which should be expected with Unlimited days up there).

I'm not talking about just powder days. And I see it every weekend.

Since Ikon is limited to 5 or 7 days TOTAL up LCC, I would be very interested to know how many Bird/Alta season passes are sold each year. To me, that would have a far GREATER pact to the traffic and parking up LCC than Ikon. Just doing the math here....

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Here is the math you forgot: 1.2 million or so in the greater SLC area. Give those skiers those days and it makes a difference. And as to Alta/Bird passes, I spoke to a Snowbird employee last weekend who confirmed that Snowbird season pass sales are indeed down. Why pay $1,000 for ONE ski area when you pay $1,000 for your choice of FIVE in SLC and more beyond?

And from that NY Time article:

Resorts that are within driving distance of major metropolitan areas, in particular, are coping with powder day throngs not seen before.

So I guess the NYT is wrong as well in its reporting according to you?
 
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thetrailboss

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You act as if 7 days per person isnt a big deal, it's HUGE when you're talking about a ski area sitting on top of a 1.3M population.

I'd speculate many of those people were greatly spread out among ski areas in the past, now it's an absolute no-brainer to buy IKON if you live within an hour or so of there.

Exactly.
 

thetrailboss

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All those pass holders are increasing revenue. But also increasing skier volume by skiing more days. The question becomes is the mountain capacity there? Indications are that some areas are showing stress: parking, long lift lines.

We've seen this movie before with ASC. That only ended when ASC liquidated and went out of business. Here? No.
 

thetrailboss

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NYT article titled For Some Resorts, Multi-Mountain Passes Mean Crowded Slopes and Longer Lift Lines

Behind paywall. Might be able to read it with proxy server.

An interesting tidbit, although I think that the number is well above 250,000 passes sold last year:

As single lift ticket prices at many resorts now approach $200, passes continue to grow more popular. Vail announced in December it had sold more than 1.2 million passes for this winter, an increase of 22 percent. Alterra doesn’t make its numbers public, but the company said it sold more than 250,000 passes for last winter, and sales for this season, Mr. Gregory says, “were up markedly.”

Another source last month said that 2019-2020 sales were up 66% this year. So that would mean at least 415,000 passes this year.

And all of the cited resorts in that article, except for A-Basin, are part of which pass product? Begins with an "I."
 

thetrailboss

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Seven years?

Why not five? or nine? Be specific. You have to know right?


And yes, if Vail does fail, Lord knows you will take a serious victory lap, drink Milk and flaunt your Hood sponsorship

Ain't know one who loves to say, "I told you so! I was right!" quite like you do BG. But, if that's what your fragile ego needs, go for it. It makes for solid entertainment.

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I think that his bigger point is that Vail's revenue growth is due to acquisitions and that at some point they are going to run out of marketshare to buy or things to acquire.
 

thetrailboss

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I guess I am in the minority but the IKON now at Sugarbush will probably be one of the best things yet. My perspective:
- my pass has gone down by $100.
- I now get to ski all over the west for no cost at most of my favorite resorts that long time friends have moved to. So...Free skiing and lodging
- I have a ski in ski out place so parking is no issue.
- I am a frequent skier at Sugarbush so I know how to avoid the line and crowds.
- I seldom eat in the lodge and go to mother stuffers, chez Henri or pack a lunch, so no crowds to deal with there.
- I now have a new owner with more capital that has a history of doing upgrades so the future looks good.

Absolutely no down side for me. I guess I am lucky.

Bingo. Why own a pass that limits you to one ski area when for the same price you now have something like 32 or so?

And someone recently said that they heard that Deer Valley had 11,000 skiers recently on a day. Not sure where that was or who said it, but I'm curious as to where that information came from because Deer Valley advertises it limits to 8,000 and, mysteriously, the last year they have started having "parking issues" when that NEVER happened before. Now they are restricting one lot to carpool only. So glad that all that snow mysteriously brings out more people than before. :roll:
 
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