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Running a lift of off diesel

Glenn

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Stratton was running one of their detachables off the diesel engine Sunday. Based on the snow report, they had been doing that for a few days. I had thought that the diesel was there for a backup; to get people off the lift if the primary electric drive goes down. If you are running the diesel, you essentially have no backup?
 
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thetrailboss

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FWIW they have to run the diesel backups every once in a while to make sure that they will operate when needed in a real emergency. Perhaps that was what they were doing (?) It seems like there is something else going on though if they are running it on diesel for that long.
 

ceo

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Lifts are always required to have a backup if there are skiers on it. If it's running in passenger service off the diesel, it must have an additional backup. On most lifts, the diesel is only powerful enough to run the lift for evacuation.
 

kbroderick

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Lifts are always required to have a backup if there are skiers on it. If it's running in passenger service off the diesel, it must have an additional backup. On most lifts, the diesel is only powerful enough to run the lift for evacuation.

I believe the exact regulations vary from state to state (IIRC New York is as you describe, but the ANSI spec allows for operation on an APU as long as it meets the service requirements for a primary drive and evacuation gear and personnel are "immediately available"; I'm not sure about other states).
 

WWF-VT

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FWIW - the Green Mountain Express chair at Mt Ellen has been running on diesel all season while awaiting a replacement part that was damaged by a lightning strike last summer
 

machski

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Some lifts are designed with a full backup diesel motor and can be run on electric or this full diesel motor (rated same power as primary electric). Those lifts will also have a smaller alternate motor (usually diesel too) as an evacuation motor. You cannot run a chair just on aux motor (one not full rated power of the primary) other than testing or unloading if primary fails. Sunday River's Chondola has the full backup diesel and aux one and they do run off the full diesel on occasion to keep it working or cover for electrical issues. I would thing when Barker and Jordan are replaced, both will probably get full diesel backups and aux motors (Jordan at the very least with how critical it is for the hotel).

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Newpylong

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FWIW they have to run the diesel backups every once in a while to make sure that they will operate when needed in a real emergency. Perhaps that was what they were doing (?) It seems like there is something else going on though if they are running it on diesel for that long.

You're actually supposed to start the diesel APU up (the real one, not a secondary diesel prime mover if equipped) every day prior to opening to ensure correct operation.
 

kbroderick

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Some lifts are designed with a full backup diesel motor and can be run on electric or this full diesel motor (rated same power as primary electric). Those lifts will also have a smaller alternate motor (usually diesel too) as an evacuation motor.

Is that a change to the current B77 specs? I'm not enough of a geek to buy my own copy of the PDF, but the version posted on the NY DOL site (with NY-specific changes) includes this text:

New York DOL ANSI updates said:
No aerial lift shall be operated using a single power unit without a second operable powerunit being available except for unloading passengers or for maintenance purposes.

[ EXCEPTION – An aerial lift may continue loading passengers if the following requirements are met:
a) The power unit in use meets the requirements of a prime mover (see 3.1.2.1.1);
b) Evacuation gear and personnel shall be immediately available in sufficient number and quantity to evacuate the entire aerial lift in a period specified in the evacuation plan (see 3.3.2.5.7).]

If I'm reading the document correctly, the square brackets indicate that the section has been deleted for NYS purposes, i.e. the exception is not allowable there, so it's quite possible that other states and/or insurance companies have also adopted a more-strict interpretation.

The NY changes PDF is at https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/safetyhealth/PDFs/Industrial_Code_Rule_32_ski_industry.pdf
 

x10003q

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Either last year or the year before, the Ursa HS6 at Stratton ran on diesel from the end of Feb until they closed in April.
 

Glenn

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Interestingly enough, I went back to my deleted items to find the snow report from last week that mentioned the issue. Stratton must pull their report directly from their website. All my "old" deleted snow reports were pulling the report from today.

Whatever ran Sunday was a pretty beefy engine. From the parking lot, it sounded like a groomer going up the hill at full tilt. Riding the lift, you could tell it wasn't running at 100%, but it was far from slow aux power.

And good point about Ursa last year! I remember the tank of diesel that had under the top terminal with a fuel line running to the engine above.
 

machski

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As far as I know, if there is only one backup motor, it is usually an APU (not fully rated) and that cannot be used other than emptying the lift. It is possible some lifts with only a single diesel have that motor fully rated to power the lift at full. In those instances, if they chose to run the diesel as primary and the electric drive was fine, then the electric could be considered the backup that day. I have heard some areas run the diesel option on days their electric costs skyrocket (many commercial plans fluctuate cost with grid demand) as it can actually be cheaper on occasion running the diesel motor.

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Slidebrook87

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Most Doppelmayr detachable quads do not have anything other than an evac drive but some were ordered with larger Diesel engines, often two of them that can run the lift close to full speed. Almost all Poma Omega and LPA model lifts were built with two diesel backup engines. Both can be ran simultaneously or they can operate independently. While it may be more expensive, it gives mountains the added comfort that they can still be able to operate the lift as usual. Green Mountain Express is a good example of this. Since it is a 2002 Poma Omega lift built with two diesel backups, it has been running at about 950 ft/min all season on diesel. A portable tank is brought up on a sled towed by a snowmobile or cat. This tank feeds into a tank located in a motor room. Out of all the lifts to have a serious drive fault at Sugarbush, they’re lucky to have had it been GMX. If Bravo had a similar issue, it couldn’t use its Diesel engine to run anywhere above about 600 ft/min. This would destroy capacity and essentially ruin that part of the mountain.


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cdskier

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Green Mountain Express is a good example of this. Since it is a 2002 Poma Omega lift built with two diesel backups, it has been running at about 950 ft/min all season on diesel. A portable tank is brought up on a sled towed by a snowmobile or cat. This tank feeds into a tank located in a motor room. Out of all the lifts to have a serious drive fault at Sugarbush, they’re lucky to have had it been GMX.

This has been a popular topic on quite a few lift rides at ME recently. "Why is that lift so loud" "Why is it running on diesel". I've pointed out the same thing to people during those discussions about how lucky they were that it happened to GMX where they have 2 diesels.
 

Slidebrook87

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This has been a popular topic on quite a few lift rides at ME recently. "Why is that lift so loud" "Why is it running on diesel". I've pointed out the same thing to people during those discussions about how lucky they were that it happened to GMX where they have 2 diesels.

I hear a lot of chat about it too. The most lift related chat I have heard recently is when Gate House ran 700 earlier this season due to an RPD fault. Everyone was talking about how slow it was.


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Newpylong

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Most Doppelmayr detachable quads do not have anything other than an evac drive but some were ordered with larger Diesel engines, often two of them that can run the lift close to full speed. Almost all Poma Omega and LPA model lifts were built with two diesel backup engines. Both can be ran simultaneously or they can operate independently. While it may be more expensive, it gives mountains the added comfort that they can still be able to operate the lift as usual. Green Mountain Express is a good example of this. Since it is a 2002 Poma Omega lift built with two diesel backups, it has been running at about 950 ft/min all season on diesel. A portable tank is brought up on a sled towed by a snowmobile or cat. This tank feeds into a tank located in a motor room. Out of all the lifts to have a serious drive fault at Sugarbush, they’re lucky to have had it been GMX. If Bravo had a similar issue, it couldn’t use its Diesel engine to run anywhere above about 600 ft/min. This would destroy capacity and essentially ruin that part of the mountain.

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Both diesels (if equipped) cannot and do not operate simultaneously - they are typically on different shafts and use different controls. The Diesel Prime Mover (if equipped) is appropriately sized in HP to equal or come close to the electric motor's mechanical output size in HP, and operates on those controls. The APU is much smaller and uses APU controls.
 

Slidebrook87

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Speaking of diesel powered lifts, Big Sky’s Powder Seeker 6 had to run on diesel today due to the electric motor overheating. It can run 1,000 on diesel but in order to reduce strain on the motor they ran it at 850-900 ft/min.


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bigbob

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It was Sunrise Express and I believe it was closed all day Monday and Tuesday morning.

The electric motor burned out and has to be rewound, which could take a few weeks. The back up diesel can be run since it has a backup. However, since the way the torque converter was designed, they cannot stop the lift for very long without shutting down the diesel engine. It will over heat.
 
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