Vail suspending all ski operations immediately

BenedictGomez said:

That's a good point, I hadn't considered the bizarre uniqueness of these products as "faux" season passes.

Still, that's not Vail Resort or Alterra's fault. A season pass isnt like a forward-dated advanced purchase lift ticket.

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I think thats a very arguable and winnable point. Keystone opened not much after A-Basin, Mount Snow opened up not after Killington, Locally to me (Within 2 hours) Jack Frost or was it Big Boulder was open at Thanksgiving.

Plenty of time to use your pass... Does it suck that someone planned a CO Trip for the End of March and didn't use it, Yep. but Class Action wrong doing that is not.

https://www.outtherecolorado.com/va...lions-over-early-end-to-2019-2020-ski-season/

https://www.bloomberglaw.com/public...20cv02463NDCalApr102020CourtDocket?1586855225


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jaytrem said:

Good idea, but I wouldn't count on Vail winning this one. I went into reading kindaon Vail's side, but I gotta admit they do make some good points. I do know a few people who got no use, or almost no use, from their Epic or Ikon. They mainly purchased it for a spring western trip.

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I do get both sides of it.

This past season, I got 34 days on my Epic Local. No complaints with that at all

I got 3 days on my full IKON - not thrilled with that, but the combo of having to cancel a planned trip to Utah over Christmas week and then having either my racer parent schedule change and/or some of my kids races at IKON resorts getting cancelled, had me getting about 10-12 less days on my IKON than I thought I would when I bought it last September. That's just the way the ball bounced for me this season. Do I want to become a part of the IKON class action suit because I can't use the remaining days I have available for Killington now? Nope, that's just my own personal view of things.

Heck, I made the choice not to get pass insurance, so in my head, this isn't much different than if I say blew out my ACL in December, and then went looking for a refund. Things happen. Sucks especially for those who bought with the sole intent of using it for just 1 week in late March and beyond. The reality is for those folks, maybe the pass wasn't the best option in the first place, for more than just economic reasons. That though is probably a 20 or so page thread of its own ;-)

Seems like the question is did they advertise something and then not deliver? If so they may have a problem. Clearly there is still enough snow for skiing. Of course the virus isn't their fault, but it's also not the fault of the passholders. I suspect the future fine print will address such things. Some other places are already putting in guidelines for how much you'll get off the next year pass if not open for X number of days.

It is interesting to see people supporting the so called "evil empire". I guess we all hate lawyers more than Vail.

jaytrem said:

Seems like the question is did they advertise something and then not deliver? If so they may have a problem. Clearly there is still enough snow for skiing. Of course the virus isn't their fault, but it's also not the fault of the passholders. I suspect the future fine print will address such things. Some other places are already putting in guidelines for how much you'll get off the next year pass if not open for X number of days.

It is interesting to see people supporting the so called "evil empire". I guess we all hate lawyers more than Vail.

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Staying my bias upfront, I'm someone who is marginally warm to Vail, but surely not a fanboy. 'They happen to be the ones bringing me a good pass product, so good for the time being' is my general attitude.

That established, I don't know how any serious skier looks at this and holds anyone in the industry accountable for not remaining open longer. It's not about being pro/anti Vail in my book. It's about looking at the situation with your head screwed on straight and understanding that some circumstances are out of everyone's control.

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The other question is does it benefit Vail to give some kind of refund of unused product. The lawsuit could muddy up any plans they had for that. I know if I bought a 4 or 7 day pass strictly for a trip in mid March, I wouldn't be too happy with them right now. No chance I'd ever buy again from them. Lots of other companies are making good on stuff, example are Six Flags, Cedar Fair, Fox car rental gave my friend a refund on a non-refundable rental. Jet Blue is giving a friend a hard time on a refund on flights they cancelled, he'll never fly them again.

jaytrem said:

Seems like the question is did they advertise something and then not deliver? If so they may have a problem. Clearly there is still enough snow for skiing. Of course the virus isn't their fault, but it's also not the fault of the passholders. I suspect the future fine print will address such things. Some other places are already putting in guidelines for how much you'll get off the next year pass if not open for X number of days.

It is interesting to see people supporting the so called "evil empire". I guess we all hate lawyers more than Vail.

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It's less in support of Vail and more so just not supporting some douche/douches who are suing for what we all know is a ridiculous reason. Seriously, how big of an asshole do you have to be to initiate this lawsuit?

This is a sport, a luxury item, and always labeled 'as conditions permit'. Why can't the mountains argue a worldwide pandemic creating 'conditions' which would not allow them to continue the season. This time 'conditions' mean the ability to field a workforce and not have people infected, rather than snow quality/quantity. But, if you're going to sue them over this, I'd think the same asshole-y type of logic could be used to defend their stance.

Jcb890 said:

It's less in support of Vail and more so just not supporting some douche/douches who are suing for what we all know is a ridiculous reason. Seriously, how big of an asshole do you have to be to initiate this lawsuit?

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I certainly agree that most class action lawsuits are frivolous and merely serve to enrich the lawyers. I have gotten the postcards like everyone else.

OTOH, jeez, class action lawsuits are an important check on corporate power. If not for class action, any corporation could rip people off for $1,000 or $2,000, and there would be very little recourse for consumers, because it's expensive to sue. So class action lawsuits are not all bad. That's all I want to say.

p_levert said:

I certainly agree that most class action lawsuits are frivolous and merely serve to enrich the lawyers. I have gotten the postcards like everyone else.

OTOH, jeez, class action lawsuits are an important check on corporate power. If not for class action, any corporation could rip people off for $1,000 or $2,000, and there would be very little recourse for consumers, because it's expensive to sue. So class action lawsuits are not all bad. That's all I want to say.

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To Jaytrem's point, we also have the ability to take our business elsewhere. I'd be tempted to never ski at Vail resorts again if they didn't give me a credit for my purchase if I had dated tickets to ski on the weekend of 4/11 at Breckenridge, for example.

As long as the company in question is operating in a competitive industry, this is a very real check.

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jaytrem said:

Good idea, but I wouldn't count on Vail winning this one. I went into reading kindaon Vail's side, but I gotta admit they do make some good points. I do know a few people who got no use, or almost no use, from their Epic or Ikon. They mainly purchased it for a spring western trip.

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I'm not at all a fan of class action or tort cases in general. That's just me. I believe in the "loser pays all costs" strategy employed by many other countries.

I think what this particular situation does point out is that humans purchase things with plans and best outcomes in mind. And then, who would have thought, something comes along and wrecks those plans. The best laid plans...

What a perfect storm of chaos to totally unravel the megapass model. The "wave of the future" for ski area operations is turned on it's head in a flash. While I feel for your acquaintances who purchased passes they ultimately cannot use, that's how the cookie crumbles. With so many industries hurting like the airlines, how will the decrease in megapass sales look in September? I'm sure those folks will not be purchasing again.

eastern powder baby said:

To Jaytrem's point, we also have the ability to take our business elsewhere. I'd be tempted to never ski at Vail resorts again if they didn't give me a credit for my purchase if I had dated tickets to ski on the weekend of 4/11 at Breckenridge, for example.

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Tickets with a specific date that fell in the closure time-frame I would agree with being credited/refunded. An open-ended ski pass that you had ample time to use however is a different story. And it sounds like the primary plaintiff isn't even someone that falls in the category of a person that never used their pass at all based on the lawsuit. The claim is they purchased the pass (a $499 Tahoe Local pass) based on the promise that it would give them "unlimited, unrestricted skiing" from October to June as long as there was snow. And they argue if they had known that Vail would keep the full purchase amount of the pass if the season was unexpectedly cut short for some reason, that they wouldn't have bought the pass. Granted this person may have been recruited by the lawyers and didn't necessarily take it upon himself to start the case, but still...

The "well I bought it specifically to use in March/April" argument is interesting, but I don't really see it holding up. Plenty of arguments that I think Vail can use there (and I don't really recall that argument even explicitly stated in the lawsuit...just more general ones about "unused days" on the 1-7 day passes and a restriction of access when there was still snow on the mountains).

Here's an interesting hypothetical scenario...what if the plaintiff won the case and Vail was ordered to pay millions out as a result. That could cause them to declare bankruptcy. The Tahoe resorts could end up with new owners and end up having more expensive passes than the current Epic ones. Wonder how the plaintiff would feel if that scenario played out?

p_levert said:

I certainly agree that most class action lawsuits are frivolous and merely serve to enrich the lawyers. I have gotten the postcards like everyone else.

OTOH, jeez, class action lawsuits are an important check on corporate power. If not for class action, any corporation could rip people off for $1,000 or $2,000, and there would be very little recourse for consumers, because it's expensive to sue. So class action lawsuits are not all bad. That's all I want to say.

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I'm only speaking of this specific lawsuit. You have to be a real piece of work to have started this lawsuit. I hope they lose and everyone loses money on the ordeal.

Very rarely would I side with the large conglomerate company. In this case, I'm 100% on Vail's side.

My Two Cents...........IF it was just Vail that closed yes, but the whole ski industry closed? No law suit should even be considered!

Scum lawyers.

RichT said:

My Two Cents...........IF it was just Vail that closed yes, but the whole ski industry closed? No law suit should even be considered!

Scum lawyers.

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They did close first then others followed suit. Not saying I think there should be a suit.


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Smellytele said:

They did close first then others followed suit. Not saying I think there should be a suit.

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Not so, there were some small places that first pulled the trigger prior to Vail. Not that I see how that matters.

BenedictGomez said:

Not so, there were some small places that first pulled the trigger prior to Vail. Not that I see how that matters.

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It doesn't matter because within three hours of Vail closing 90% of the ski resorts in the US were closed. I'm never going to forget that night.

Smellytele said:

They did close first then others followed suit. Not saying I think there should be a suit.


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Jay Peak closed before vail, as did many other smaller areas

jaytrem said:

The other question is does it benefit Vail to give some kind of refund of unused product. The lawsuit could muddy up any plans they had for that. I know if I bought a 4 or 7 day pass strictly for a trip in mid March, I wouldn't be too happy with them right now. No chance I'd ever buy again from them. Lots of other companies are making good on stuff, example are Six Flags, Cedar Fair, Fox car rental gave my friend a refund on a non-refundable rental. Jet Blue is giving a friend a hard time on a refund on flights they cancelled, he'll never fly them again.

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I can maybe see some validity for the Epic Day pass purchasers. While specific dates are not attached (valid any days over the season), 1-7 days pre bought like this could arguably been made for a single vacation week. Given what Vail charges for day or even multi-day tickets if purchased when you arrive/outside of the Epic Day pass program, a solid argument could be made here. Epecially since Vail tracks the days used off of these Epic Day Passes.

The problem for Vail is, if they credited unused days for the limited Day Pass to the following season, they would have received a ton of blowback I think from Epic Local/Full Epic Passholders for something too. I guess they are seeing the one downside to their ticketing model they created now and this was likely the only scenario where it would fail so miserably.

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FWIW...there's a lawsuit against Alterra as well for the same thing.

https://vtskiandride.com/will-these-lawsuits-mean-for-ski-areas/

If someone hadn't used their season pass, and can prove that they had a trip booked for after the ski areas shut down, the decent thing for Vail to do would be to refund the money. They don't have to, but it would be a nice gesture.