Ski Resort Response to COVID-19 - Page 74

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  1. #731
    machski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
    I hate to sound like Debbie Downer, but there's an excellent argument to be made that limited directional airflow is quite possibly worse than no ventilation at all.

    Here's a Chinese COVID19 contact tracing event I saved back when I was looking into all this stuff. The folks in line with the steady breeze of the AC got COVID19, no people off to the side became infected.

    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/images/20-0764-F1.jpg
    Sorry BG, I have to call you out for BS on this. Front to back constant ventilation is nothing like ventilation in a dining room. You cannot compare a tram or a Gondi cabin for that matter to eating at a restaurant indoors. They are not the same, at a restaurant or at a function in a hall, you are in that space for an extended period of time (dining usually what, an hour or so and at a party in a convention hall, at least 2 hours?). In that timeframe, you are likely maskless for much of it and not like you aren't carrying on conversation, increasing your respiratory releases. Flip to a Tram or Gondi, you are in that space for what, 7-10 mins and during that time all riders are masked (at least suppose to be so for the argument, assume all follow that). Sea to me transmission vectors and potential exposure times are drastically different. Obviously neither are zero risk, but you are really trying to fear monger on enclosed lifts and probability of transmission. If you don't like them, don't ride them. But enough with BS unequal comparisons and spare us all your "science.". I do not find it accurate at all.

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  2. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by machski View Post
    Sorry BG, I have to call you out for BS on this. Front to back constant ventilation is nothing like ventilation in a dining room. You cannot compare a tram or a Gondi cabin for that matter to eating at a restaurant indoors. They are not the same, at a restaurant or at a function in a hall, you are in that space for an extended period of time (dining usually what, an hour or so and at a party in a convention hall, at least 2 hours?). In that timeframe, you are likely maskless for much of it and not like you aren't carrying on conversation, increasing your respiratory releases. Flip to a Tram or Gondi, you are in that space for what, 7-10 mins and during that time all riders are masked (at least suppose to be so for the argument, assume all follow that). Sea to me transmission vectors and potential exposure times are drastically different. Obviously neither are zero risk, but you are really trying to fear monger on enclosed lifts and probability of transmission. If you don't like them, don't ride them. But enough with BS unequal comparisons and spare us all your "science.". I do not find it accurate at all.

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    I’m with BG
    1.You’re breathing heavier after just engaged in a physical activity, more likely need more than 6’ to be safe.
    2.Coughing from the cold air ? Dealing with a running nose occasionally.

    What’s Cannon tram capacity 80 ? Even 40 would not give enough space. Open windows won’t help unless you’re the person in the front.
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  3. #733
    machski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siliconebobsquarepants View Post
    I’m with BG
    1.You’re breathing heavier after just engaged in a physical activity, more likely need more than 6’ to be safe.
    2.Coughing from the cold air ? Dealing with a running nose occasionally.

    What’s Cannon tram capacity 80 ? Even 40 would not give enough space. Open windows won’t help unless you’re the person in the front.
    First off, if Cannon did the same with their tram, it would be 20 max in that box. Secondly, you have to be wearing a mask and considering the tram has an operator on board, doubt anyone will be getting away without wearing one. Third, of they are running at that reduced of a capacity, lift line could be several minutes long so the "heavy breathers" from and exhilarating run should have slowed their breathing rate down to a normal rate by the time they board.

    Again, everyone will have their own comfort levels with things. My job makes me travel, I'm a pilot is a small corporate jet. We stay in hotels, we eat at restaurants (sometimes I get take out and bring back to the room, but that has gotten old) with appropriate spacing, we get airlined around and have to use Lyft/Uber and take shuttle vans. So again, my perception of the risks have been colored by my job.

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  4. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Newpylong View Post
    B) Event had prolonged exposure, indoors, F&B consumed, no PPO, etc. The gondola while arguably is "indoors" has a near if not 100% air exchange each time the doors are opened. Folks will only be in there for 10 minutes, they'll have their faces covered, they won't be eating, etc.

    Folks can keep harping on the issue of the Gondies but the solution is simply don't ride them if you are concerned. The risk of exposure is not zero but low. Unlike going into a store to get food, there are other options besides gondolas to get up the mountain.
    A lot of what you said above is either wrong or irrelevant here, but the one legitimate point you made in the above is the time-of-exposure, which does in fact matter. So I'll address that by saying that while we scientifically do not know the optimal "time" for COVID19 transmission, it is known that 10 minutes is far more than enough required to catch the virus. We know this via hundreds of captured, pooled, contact tracing data globally.
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  5. #735
    First if you not comfortable with do not take the tram or gondola, period! If everyone has face coverings the 6 ft is not a requirement! Social distancing of 6ft or more is if you are not wearing a face mask! Denver Airport has a train and there is no distancing or limitation on number of passengers at all, just face masks - that is much like riding on a tram. I have ridden the train 8 times and never had an issue!

    At this time Cannon is not announcing plans for the tram. Jay Peak is running with 15 people at this time. Snowbird is doing 25! Thems the rules for now no amount of debate will change that!

    Just sayin!


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  6. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by urungus View Post
    There no way you’ll get me in a gondola or tram this season, but air coming out of an air conditioner is not the same as fresh outdoor air.
    Correct, but it's the direction of flow I'm talking about in this instance, not the re-circulation of flow, which is also bad but wouldnt apply in the tram (take a look at the diagram I linked). If you're a person in the tram in-line with the flow of "fresh air" behind the vector, I suspect that's not going to be a good thing on a 12 minute tram trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by machski View Post
    Sorry BG, I have to call you out for BS on this. Front to back constant ventilation is nothing like ventilation in a dining room. You cannot compare a tram or a Gondi cabin for that matter to eating at a restaurant indoors. They are not the same, at a restaurant or at a function in a hall, you are in that space for an extended period of time (dining usually what, an hour or so and at a party in a convention hall, at least 2 hours?).
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by machski View Post
    enough with BS unequal comparisons and spare us all your "science.". I do not find it accurate at all.
    Obviously any comparison will literally be "unequal", but that's kind of the entire point. This is a novel virus so there's nothing linear 1-to-1 to compare it with, but we can use what we do now about viral particulate science, contact tracing, mechanism of infection, and 101 other things to make an educated guess. For instance, the air in winter will be dry too by the way, which is worse. Your bodies' protective cilia cant function as well in dry air, which is worse. You're in a shoebox, which is worse. People will have increased respiration, which is worse. You can go on-and-on. I have no idea how you refer to any of this as "fear-mongering", much less calling it inaccurate.
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  7. #737
    machski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
    Correct, but it's the direction of flow I'm talking about in this instance, not the re-circulation of flow, which is also bad but wouldnt apply in the tram (take a look at the diagram I linked). If you're a person in the tram in-line with the flow of "fresh air" behind the vector, I suspect that's not going to be a good thing on a 12 minute tram trip.



    See above



    Obviously any comparison will literally be "unequal", but that's kind of the entire point. This is a novel virus so there's nothing linear 1-to-1 to compare it with, but we can use what we do now about viral particulate science, contact tracing, mechanism of infection, and 101 other things to make an educated guess. For instance, the air in winter will be dry too by the way, which is worse. Your bodies' protective cilia cant function as well in dry air, which is worse. You're in a shoebox, which is worse. People will have increased respiration, which is worse. You can go on-and-on. I have no idea how you refer to any of this as "fear-mongering", much less calling it inaccurate.
    I give up, you're just God and know everything. Like I said, ride them or don't. I don't think it's the calamity in the making you make them out to be.

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  8. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by machski View Post
    I give up, you're just God and know everything.
    I literally said, "we dont know" (several times in fact), but I guess if you cant address points & refute them, you respond like this.

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  9. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Newpylong View Post
    Unlike going into a store to get food, there are other options besides gondolas to get up the mountain.
    Not everywhere.

    For instance, here's a ski resort called Ischgl in Austria. It's really very unusual as the only way up the mountain from the base is via one of 3 gondolas.

    Given the expansive terrain, for many I suspect those will be the only 3 lifts you ride all day. In any event I'd never heard of Ischgl until recently. The reason I heard of it is because it is numerically the #1 COVID19 superspreading site successfully traced on the entire continent of Europe (and I believe also the entire world).

    To be sure, there was also tracing that led back to apres-ski bars & restaurants as well, including one where patrons shared whistles for some reason. But before you can give it to someone apres-ski you had to have caught the virus "avant-ski". Now surely machski will call this "fear-mongering" as well, but I call it another bit of circumstantial evidence that I file away in a bid to use deductive reasoning to predict reality.

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  10. #740
    Newpylong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
    A lot of what you said above is either wrong or irrelevant here, but the one legitimate point you made in the above is the time-of-exposure, which does in fact matter. So I'll address that by saying that while we scientifically do not know the optimal "time" for COVID19 transmission, it is known that 10 minutes is far more than enough required to catch the virus. We know this via hundreds of captured, pooled, contact tracing data globally.
    Are you going to be making out with stangers inside the gondola? What is your exposure avenue for these 10 minutes assuming everyone is fully dressed, has their gater up and is not coughing all over the place?

    You can say "I am wrong or this is irrelevant" but I think you would find most doctors would say there is a very low probability of transmission in this scenario. But the morale of the story really is, don't ride them if you're not comfortable.

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