Pico Will Not Operate 7 Days A Week

millerm277 said:

I have my doubts....based on how most of their decisions so far seem to be based solely on cost. (Season length, laid-off employees...)



True, but...their current decisions have the potential to cause major damage...and by the time those things play out, more permanent damage may be done to K and especially Pico.




That'd be nice....




I'd say we have a few clues, and so far, they aren't pointing toward a great future.

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There's a prevailing attitude here they're out of touch with their market ("stupid" in business).

It's clear they're out of touch with the market who is posting here. Assuming this is their chosen market, maybe they are "stupid".

Is everyone here sure we are their market? Cause you have to admit they don't act like they care about skiers like us.

$399 for a no blackout pass is a steal. Even with these strings attached. Ms. TB said go for it. ASSUMING that they offer a good product for us on the open days, which are all when she wants to ski (she does not have ANY interest in going on T-W), then we will be happy.

It is a compromise in my book. Assuming we don't get burned, I am not too upset.

I do sympathize for the members of the local high school racing teams that use the mountain midweek, as well as members of the Pico Ski Club. I HOPE that they were able to be in on the discussion regarding this decision. Racing is a big thing at Pico...some big meets there and to lose them would be a shame.

JimG. said:

It's clear they're out of touch with the market who is posting here. Assuming this is their chosen market, maybe they are "stupid".

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Obviously, we (for the most part), don't seem to be the market they want to cater to, but Killington doesn't have what it takes to draw the high-end skiers in, and isn't going to unless they actually invest some money into it.

Do I think they're stupid? No, but..I do think that they haven't operated in the East before, and haven't realized yet that things work a lot differently here than out West.

millerm277 said:

Do I think they're stupid? No, but..I do think that they haven't operated in the East before, and haven't realized yet that things work a lot differently here than out West.

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Maybe they'll learn from their mistakes.

JimG. said:

Maybe they'll learn from their mistakes.

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I think very few people, whether from the west or east, have figured out how to run a ski area successfully out here.

threecy said:

I think very few people, whether from the west or east, have figured out how to run a ski area successfully out here.

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Sugarbush's owners have. Or more areas should try to go like MRG and say "who needs owners?"

threecy said:

I think very few people, whether from the west or east, have figured out how to run a ski area successfully out here.

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The Muellers seem to have figured it out. They have done a pretty good job with Okemo.

Of all of the names listed above in response to my post, very few of them are showing a net profit yet. Okemo is certainly a success story, however. They definitely fall into the list of the very few.

threecy said:

Of all of the names listed above in response to my post, very few of them are showing a net profit yet. Okemo is certainly a success story, however. They definitely fall into the list of the very few.

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How can you make that statement?
The names listed are Wildcat, which is privately owned and does not makes its financial statements available.
Peaks Resorts, which is privately owned and does not makes its financial statements available.
Sugarbush, which is privately owned and does not make its financial statements available.
Okemo, which you referred to as a success story, pushed the extended season HARD at Sunapee this year.

Perhaps you have access to data that the rest of us don't, but it seems like speculation to say that Wildcat, Peaks, and Sugarbush are losers.

Edit: Oh yeah, MRG, but they are a bit atypical in their operating philosophy.

I won't go into details, but just do some simple math based upon the purchase prices/investments made into some of those areas...they aren't cracking a net profit yet.

FWIW Wildcat is for sale. Has been for a while. The family wants to get out of the biz...probably because it is tough to make money.

Triple Peaks: I've heard that they are making a killing at Sunapee. Okemo is doing well.

Peaks Resorts: probably doing well....they are not taking the draconian actions that ASC did. The real test has yet to come....running Snow and Attitash are different than their typical "day resort" business plan.

Geoff said:

Apples & oranges. You are mixing condo development with infrastructure development.

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I wade into this abortion at my peril but....


1) Most of the investment at Stowe was in condos, but a big piece is also the new snowmaking system at Spruce, the new quads at Spruce, the interconnect lift, the impending new Mansfield lodge, and some other new buildings and lifts on the way.

2) SB was definitely focused on Clay Brook, but they also bought themselves a new lodge and base area restaurant.

3) Jackson Gore, while driven by real-estate (what isn't?), added a huge amount of new terrain to Okemo - lifts, trails, lodges, etc..

What these jokers are doing makes no sense. As someone mentioned, they just sold Alpine Meadows, so they have some cash. More importantly, the capital they needed to finance the deferred maintenance at K-Mart/Pico over the last 10-15 years should have been factored into their purchase price. That's how how businesses are valued - anyone that tells you different hasn't run anything more complex than a lemonade stand. The $3MM they are dumping into the place this year is truly chump change for a resort its size with 5 separate base areas and lots of old snowmaking and lift infrastructure spread out over an 11 mile long ridge. The $2.5MM at Mt. Snow buys you a lot more relative to the size of the place, and is anyway clearly a down payment on future investments.

There's no doubt that POWDR had to take drastic actions to stop the rot at K/Pico. The A41 pass pricing was stupid and unsustainable. But to accompany those increases with a drastically reduced product offering (in terms of days open at the combined entity) w/o a commensurate increase in the value proposition somewhere else is plain stoooopid.

thetrailboss said:

The real test has yet to come....running Snow and Attitash are different than their typical "day resort" business plan.

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Yes!

Because all the nice deals, improvements, and promises won't mean squat if they do a poor job of managing operations.

Tin Woodsman said:

But to accompany those increases with a drastically reduced product offering (in terms of days open at the combined entity) w/o a commensurate increase in the value proposition somewhere else is plain stoooopid.

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Unless they excell on the operations end when the snow flies. If that is the case, then it won't look so stoooopid.

thetrailboss said:

Peaks Resorts: probably doing well....they are not taking the draconian actions that ASC did. The real test has yet to come....running Snow and Attitash are different than their typical "day resort" business plan.

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When you consider they've dumped nearly $100 million into New England so far (Snow/Attitash/Crotched all in the past few years), they have a long way to go to start making a return on such a large sum of money.

When evaluating the potential success of larger ski conglomerates investing in new england it is important to consider the new ski areas as part of their total holdings rather than individual operations.

The ski industry is extremely volatile, geographically diversified operations are the best way to combat the climatological ebb and flow of the industry. In the last year alone three major western operators have added new england operations.

It could be argued that Boyne has the best track record of any of the companies that operate multiple resorts and they are also the most diversified. They now have ski areas in the midwest, new england, utah, montana, pacific-northwest and Canada. They are in every major ski market excluding Colorado and Tahoe. They also operate a tourist charilift in the south and I believe they have some other operation in florida, somebody else could confirm this. Point is they have positioned themselves to withstand the annual weather fluctuations and have a 50 year history to show for it.

thebigo said:

When evaluating the potential success of larger ski conglomerates investing in new england it is important to consider the new ski areas as part of their total holdings rather than individual operations.

The ski industry is extremely volatile, geographically diversified operations are the best way to combat the climatological ebb and flow of the industry. In the last year alone three major western operators have added new england operations.

It could be argued that Boyne has the best track record of any of the companies that operate multiple resorts and they are also the most diversified. They now have ski areas in the midwest, new england, utah, montana, pacific-northwest and Canada. They are in every major ski market excluding Colorado and Tahoe. They also operate a tourist charilift in the south and I believe they have some other operation in florida, somebody else could confirm this. Point is they have positioned themselves to withstand the annual weather fluctuations and have a 50 year history to show for it.

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Great post!

thebigo said:

When evaluating the potential success of larger ski conglomerates investing in new england it is important to consider the new ski areas as part of their total holdings rather than individual operations.

The ski industry is extremely volatile, geographically diversified operations are the best way to combat the climatological ebb and flow of the industry. In the last year alone three major western operators have added new england operations.

It could be argued that Boyne has the best track record of any of the companies that operate multiple resorts and they are also the most diversified. They now have ski areas in the midwest, new england, utah, montana, pacific-northwest and Canada. They are in every major ski market excluding Colorado and Tahoe. They also operate a tourist charilift in the south and I believe they have some other operation in florida, somebody else could confirm this. Point is they have positioned themselves to withstand the annual weather fluctuations and have a 50 year history to show for it.

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What are the three companies that you are thinking of?

I count Boyne and Powdr. Intrawest IIRC is gone...

thetrailboss said:

What are the three companies that you are thinking of?

I count Boyne and Powdr. Intrawest IIRC is gone...

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Peak?

threecy said:

Peak?

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:lol: Trailboss asleep at the wheel...