Pico Will Not Operate 7 Days A Week

nycskier · Jul 12, 2007

I can't believe this tread has gone over 100 posts without any discussion of the interconnect!

Has Powdr said anything on this subject?

ski_resort_observer · Jul 12, 2007

They said awhile back that it is currently on the back burner as they need to make some money and develope the village before they can invest in the inter-connect.

highpeaksdrifter · Jul 12, 2007

ski_resort_observer said:
They said awhile back that it is currently on the back burner as they need to make some money and develope the village before they can invest in the inter-connect.

I thought it was the Vermont APA holding that up for years anyway. Something to do with being able to see chairlifts from the App. Trail?

threecy · Jul 12, 2007

highpeaksdrifter said:
I thought it was the Vermont APA holding that up for years anyway. Something to do with being able to see chairlifts from the App. Trail?

I think that may have been resolved - the AT/LT now go around the other side of Pico. The one trail that's been cut is easily skiable.

Geoff · Jul 12, 2007

ski_resort_observer said:
Powdr sold Alpine Meadows a couple of months before they bought kmart so they have some cash. In view of the need to fix kmart 3m they are spending their first year is chump change considering that Sugarbush is in the middle of a 60+m improvement, Stowe is spending over 100m and Okemo opened Jackson Gore a couple of years ago. instead of moving forward they are falling further behind in my view.

Apples & oranges. You are mixing condo development with infrastructure development.

ski_resort_observer · Jul 12, 2007

Geoff said:
Apples & oranges. You are mixing condo development with infrastructure development.

True...but improvements are improvements.

thebigo · Jul 12, 2007

I thought it was the Vermont APA holding that up for years anyway. Something to do with being able to see chairlifts from the App. Trail?

The only thing holding up the interconnect is demand and dollars. I read somewhere that powdr said it was atleast ten years away.

JimG. · Jul 12, 2007

riverc0il said:
HPD speaks some truth. Property values certainly are not going up after this announcement. And folks renting out condos will certainly loose some mid-week revenue. Sure, you can just say people can ski Kmart instead, but if they are skiing Kmart then they are probably going to find properties and condos closer to Kmart than Pico. The base areas are not exactly right next to each other.

My point was that the decrease in property value started years ago at Pico, not when POWDR took over.

Pico was not a vibrant place with soaring property values that overnight went in the dumper because POWDR now owns it. So, if property values were a big concern, most of the people who were concerned should have sold long ago.

If they weren't paying attention and are now concerned, whose fault is that?

JimG. · Jul 12, 2007

andyzee said:
Personally I have no argument with the 5 day schedule for Pico, I agree with you. I'm looking at the overall picture and it bothers me when they say the need to make money to spend money. I feel the need to offer a superior product and in order to do so, they need to spend now. If they don't have the investment capital to make Killington a superior product, then I don't believe they should have purchased it.

Andy, isn't the "spend money to make money" scenario what got ASC into trouble? They never made enough money.

Here's a thought...if POWDR did that and went bankrupt too, would anyone step up to save Killington?

millerm277 · Jul 12, 2007

JimG. said:
Andy, isn't the "spend money to make money" scenario what got ASC into trouble? They never made enough money.

No, ASC's problem was...more "spend money we don't have, and hope the increases in profits will pay it off."

Killington is a profitable mountain but, as it hasn't seen any major investment in the past 7 years, and has barely even seen matinence, it needs a lot more that $3 million to get it back up to the proper level. That $3m will not even fix everything that is broken/worn-out from ASC's neglect. If they want to offer a product that is on par with their competition (which they do, based on their pricing), they need to make a fairly large investment, instead of cutting as much as they can, and not making any improvements (bathrooms do NOT count).

highpeaksdrifter · Jul 12, 2007

JimG. said:
My point was that the decrease in property value started years ago at Pico, not when POWDR took over.

Pico was not a vibrant place with soaring property values that overnight went in the dumper because POWDR now owns it. So, if property values were a big concern, most of the people who were concerned should have sold long ago.

If they weren't paying attention and are now concerned, whose fault is that?

You're still dancing around my orginal post. Closing 2 days every week has to hurt the condos value at Pico's base. It doesn't matter if values where already slipping or not. Closing the 2 days has to hurt there value even more.

JimG. · Jul 12, 2007

millerm277 said:
No, ASC's problem was...more "spend money we don't have, and hope the increases in profits will pay it off."

Killington is a profitable mountain but, as it hasn't seen any major investment in the past 7 years, and has barely even seen matinence, it needs a lot more that $3 million to get it back up to the proper level. That $3m will not even fix everything that is broken/worn-out from ASC's neglect. If they want to offer a product that is on par with their competition (which they do, based on their pricing), they need to make a fairly large investment, instead of cutting as much as they can, and not making any improvements (bathrooms do NOT count).

Yes, that was implied between the lines. What you said could describe the common homeowner...anybody here pay cash for their house?

If Killington is profitable then POWDR will make money and improve it. I have no doubt it can be profitable, and I have no doubt that ASC took the profits and spent them elsewhere. Blame ASC for that, not POWDR. You can blame ASC too if their performance has POWDR spooked and a bit cautious. And you can blame ASC if POWDR wants to make some money and proceed slowly.

I will bet you today there are speculators out there who will buy that property in this market at a discount and take the same type of risk these condo owners took years ago. And it's not a loss until they sell it. Those who hold on may benefit richly in the future.

There are many folks who want instant gratification. And I sense alot of resentment towards POWDR that should probably be directed at ASC (RIP). But the race goes to the sure and steady. A tough scenario for POWDR.

JimG. · Jul 12, 2007

JimG. said:
Risk...you used that word.

Risk is the domain of the buyer and it's personal. It's up to the individual to determine their level of risk and what makes them comfortable.

Humans...they take risks usually to make money...gambling, stock market, property. Risk implies the opportunity for failure. You've got to take the good with the bad.

HPD, I see your point and you're right...they should be pissed.

At themselves, not POWDR.

Not dancing. I clearly acknowledged they should be pissed right here.

Just not for the reason you think they should be pissed.

SkiDog · Jul 12, 2007

JimG. said:
I'd be pissed at myself for not paying attention to what has been happening there and at K in the past 6 years. Pico has not been a skiing powerhouse for years. In fact, most of the posts here brag about how empty it always is. If that kind of performance made you confident as a property investor, I've got a bridge...

You make it sound like all this snuck up on them and then just got dumped on them with no warning.

That's just not true.

Ummm when were any property owners "WARNED" that the new management would reduce the days the mtn operated??? I THINK...ummm NEVER....

Its not property investors...im talking about people who've owned property there for years....this is lame....there are in FACT lots of families that go to Pico for a week at a clip...well NO MORE...thanks to ASC..

Its really easy to say its cool of them to close the mtn certain days when YOU dont ski there JIM...how would it feel if they closed Hunter 2 days mid week???

Its also been said that there are many other smaller resorts that seem to be able to open 7 days a week even without condos on premise....its also been said that ASC found some way to run it 7 days a week during their tenure too...sooo....

I love when people say "its a good decision" when its not there mtn....they'd all be singing a different tune if it was the mtn they skied on regularly..

M

snowman · Jul 12, 2007

Vinny said:
That's a very valid point. It just doesn't make sense to cut back on operations/services immediately after the purchase of a service business. Pico doesn't look like a potential cash cow by any means, although I really don't know for sure. My bet is that they're going to bleed Pico, and it won't be under their umbrella in 5 years or so. Having said that, it also doesn't look like there are any terrific plans for Killington. So, although I'm certain these guys and gals know more than I do about what they bought, it's a mystery to me how their long term plan is going to be good for them and the skiers. IMHO, the way it's rolling out, this is looking like a future bust.

Powdr has 2 ways they can go: running Pico as a second seperate revenue generating enterprise at ground zero for the North East ski Industry, or treat it as something they got stuck with in a deal, have no interest in it, run it into the ground, and sell it. I see no benefit at all in the interconnect now. You can't raise ticket and pass prices higher than they already are. You're best off marketing both seperately and hope all the skiers who frequent the valley buy into both.

If they purge Pico off their books, anyone who has a clue and who wants into the ski biz (those 2 kinda cancel each other out, but oh well) would have to be crazy to not be interested in it. With all those skiers right there you could easily do well with night skiing. The second thing one has to understand is that a huge percentage of the people that go to Killington don't know how to ski and are just there to be there, a lot like Aspen. Pico could have a winter long concert series of major acts and kill Killington on weekend ticket sales. In the meantime, all those people who can barely ski would be discovering Pico's terrain is better suited to them anyway, maybe landing Pico as the new place to be "seen", stomping Killington at it's own game. Pico :flag::uzi: Big K

JimG. · Jul 12, 2007

snowman said:
Powdr has 2 ways they can go: running Pico as a second seperate revenue generating enterprise at ground zero for the North East ski Industry, or treat it as something they got stuck with in a deal, have no interest in it, run it into the ground, and sell it. I see no benefit at all in the interconnect now. You can't raise ticket and pass prices higher than they already are. You're best off marketing both seperately and hope all the skiers who frequent the valley buy into both.

If they purge Pico off their books, anyone who has a clue and who wants into the ski biz (those 2 kinda cancel each other out, but oh well) would have to be crazy to not be interested in it. With all those skiers right there you could easily do well with night skiing. The second thing one has to understand is that a huge percentage of the people that go to Killington don't know how to ski and are just there to be there, a lot like Aspen. Pico could have a winter long concert series of major acts and kill Killington on weekend ticket sales. In the meantime, all those people who can barely ski would be discovering Pico's terrain is better suited to them anyway, maybe landing Pico as the new place to be "seen", stomping Killington at it's own game. Pico :flag::uzi: Big K

I like people who think big.

I choose option 2.

snowman · Jul 12, 2007

SkiDog said:
Ummm when were any property owners "WARNED" that the new management would reduce the days the mtn operated??? I THINK...ummm NEVER....

Its not property investors...im talking about people who've owned property there for years....this is lame....there are in FACT lots of families that go to Pico for a week at a clip...well NO MORE...thanks to ASC..

Its really easy to say its cool of them to close the mtn certain days when YOU dont ski there JIM...how would it feel if they closed Hunter 2 days mid week???

Its also been said that there are many other smaller resorts that seem to be able to open 7 days a week even without condos on premise....its also been said that ASC found some way to run it 7 days a week during their tenure too...sooo....

I love when people say "its a good decision" when its not there mtn....they'd all be singing a different tune if it was the mtn they skied on regularly..

M

Someone else already answered this. All these other mountains you talk about don't have a tram leaving their parking lot every 2 minutes to the beast of the east which is 5 minutes away and owned by the same company. Pico right now is just another mountain at K. The only difference is the first lift you take is a trolly. If K announced Spruce Peak was going to be closed midweek, every week, no one would even bat an eyelash.

JimG. · Jul 12, 2007

SkiDog said:
Ummm when were any property owners "WARNED" that the new management would reduce the days the mtn operated??? I THINK...ummm NEVER....

Its not property investors...im talking about people who've owned property there for years....this is lame....there are in FACT lots of families that go to Pico for a week at a clip...well NO MORE...thanks to ASC..

Its really easy to say its cool of them to close the mtn certain days when YOU dont ski there JIM...how would it feel if they closed Hunter 2 days mid week???

Its also been said that there are many other smaller resorts that seem to be able to open 7 days a week even without condos on premise....its also been said that ASC found some way to run it 7 days a week during their tenure too...sooo....

I love when people say "its a good decision" when its not there mtn....they'd all be singing a different tune if it was the mtn they skied on regularly..

M

You're standing there...there are 2 parallel metal rails that disappear into the horizon with wooden ties holding them together. You feel vibrations on those tracks. Then there's a light on the horizon, and the high pitched sqeal of a whistle coming closer...

Some folks get off the track and some folks stand there and get hit.

After all the years of neglect, these people need more warning? Billboards? Skywriting?

Give me a break. And you must think POWDR is the white knight come to save you, or a genie to make all your wishes come true. Let's get real.

We're getting warmed up now. Go SkiDog!!

SkiDog · Jul 12, 2007

JimG. said:
My point was that the decrease in property value started years ago at Pico, not when POWDR took over.

Pico was not a vibrant place with soaring property values that overnight went in the dumper because POWDR now owns it. So, if property values were a big concern, most of the people who were concerned should have sold long ago.

If they weren't paying attention and are now concerned, whose fault is that?

Its ASC's fault and now Powdr/SPLands fault...ASC's for never promoting PICO and now Powdr/SPLand for TOTALLY ABANDONING Pico without ever giving it a shot....

I for one..know that the old "tele tuesdays" brought a decent crowd to Pico...where does that go??? What about all the high school programs????

Totally lame....Pico IS a great mountain........its the MANAGEMENT and MARKETING THAT SUCK......

M

snowman · Jul 12, 2007

JimG. said:
I like people who think big.

I choose option 2.

Thanks

Step one, location, location, location. Step 2, understand who your customer is and what his or her needs are. Step three, fullfill those needs. Step four, hire a good armoured car service :grin:

Pico Will Not Operate 7 Days A Week

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