The "Sugarbush Thread"

slatham said:

There are pro's and con's to both.
But lets be real here - 2 Distinct trails at LP? Not the case. How can you write off the utter shit show that Downspout is on a busy day?
.

Click to expand...

Yes, you outlined all the pros and cons well.

Admittedly most of my early season skiing tends to be mid-week, so a crowded DS is rarely a concern. Even so, DS from the end of OG is really not terribly long, which is why I'll still stick by my 2 distinct trails comment in Jester and OG. In distinct I'm also referring to the fact that they are completely different style trails. Conversely even if ME had Elbow and Lower Rim Run as options, they are both relatively similar (wide open cruisers).

For me it is still the Jester/OG into DS combo that I'd rather ski over a Rim Run to Elbow or Lower Rim Run combo. The amenities at the mountain have 0 impact on my preference as well. I'm rarely in the lodge and don't have a problem with either bar. At ME, the Glen House supposedly was given a more "upscale" makeover this off-season. Not sure how I feel about that as I didn't have a problem with the way it was before.

Quickly back to snow-making for a minute, all my article reading/searching today seems to trend towards the following numbers for water pumping capacity...

Sugarbush LP - 4K GPM
Sugarbush ME - 2-2.5K GPM
Stowe - 7K GPM
K - 12K GPM

So Sugarbush combined is close to Stowe's new capacity after their upgrades, but LP alone is only a bit more than half of what Stowe now has. And of course the water reservoir issue is a concern this year. At 4K GPM you can empty a 25 million gallon pond in just over 4 days of straight snow-making if no water was flowing into it. That seems to be a risky buffer... The full 63M gallon design originally permitted would have given about 11 days of straight snow-making ability needed to drain it.

The Final Environmental Impact Statement from 1998 puts the pump at the Kingsbury pond at 5000 GPM

https://books.google.com/books?id=M...arbush snow making pond pump capacity&f=false

Plowboy said:

The Final Environmental Impact Statement from 1998 puts the pump at the Kingsbury pond at 5000 GPM

https://books.google.com/books?id=M...arbush snow making pond pump capacity&f=false

Click to expand...

At last check (many years ago) there was room for one more pump at the pond and 5 more pumps at CB-1. It is lower pressure from the pond to CB-1 ~250 psi for volume, then leaves CB-1 close to 1,000 psi for the hill. I doubt they will dredge the pond as that would be a huge project and expense. To us the expense would be justified but I don't recall them having this type of water shortage this early in the year. It normally comes late January-February when they don't need to make as much snow. On the bright side at least it is 33 and raining so hopefully not much melt.

Plowboy said:

The Final Environmental Impact Statement from 1998 puts the pump at the Kingsbury pond at 5000 GPM

https://books.google.com/books?id=M...arbush snow making pond pump capacity&f=false

Click to expand...

That was one of the documents I found and I almost put 4-5K in my post for LP. Only reason I left it at 4 was that I found several google cached versions of threads from the Ski MRV forum over the past few years that kept using the 4K figure (I think one of the posts was even from win). Maybe the pump from the pond runs at 5K but it is down to 4K by the time it comes out of CB-1 for some reason? Or maybe that 5K pump was replaced with a smaller one for some reason since 1998?

thetrailboss said:

I was comparing it to the K3000 and other ground-based guns they typically use in early season. Those work better for the marginal temps and when they need to build base.

Click to expand...

Come up to Sunday River, most of the early season terrain is made with HKD's and occasionally SR7s supplement. Of course, SR does have one of the highest PSI air systems out there so that could explain why they don't struggle with warm conditions and the HKD's.

Hard to keep high pressure at SB with all that old, leaky pipe from the ASC days still serving as the backbone of the system.

Yes Stowe has 7K GPM Max but I was told that they do not max that out on most days and they can blow up to 4 runs at one time top to bottom. Pretty powerful stuff. Sunday river can blow 6 runs T to B at one time. Even better. All I would like to see is 2 Runs T to B at SB and I would be happy.

Also 90+% of the time the SB pond has a flow into it that replenishes the water at good rate so your calculation should include some kind of refilling variable to give a true sense of how fast the pond actually empties.

cdskier said:

Quickly back to snow-making for a minute, all my article reading/searching today seems to trend towards the following numbers for water pumping capacity...

Sugarbush LP - 4K GPM
Sugarbush ME - 2-2.5K GPM
Stowe - 7K GPM
K - 12K GPM

So Sugarbush combined is close to Stowe's new capacity after their upgrades, but LP alone is only a bit more than half of what Stowe now has. And of course the water reservoir issue is a concern this year. At 4K GPM you can empty a 25 million gallon pond in just over 4 days of straight snow-making if no water was flowing into it. That seems to be a risky buffer... The full 63M gallon design originally permitted would have given about 11 days of straight snow-making ability needed to drain it.

Click to expand...

Except a ttb run at Stowe is way longer than a ttb at SR at least vertical wise.

You have a point as I would bet the Stowe trails may be a bit longer. But the SR trails are certainly wider so I bet in the long run the amount of snow needed is the same. The real number that counts is the amount of guns they can run. I have no idea what those number are.

SIKSKIER said:

Except a ttb run at Stowe is way longer than a ttb at SR at least vertical wise.

Click to expand...

Not sure on total guns at Stowe, but SR claims a pumping capacity of 8100 GPM and over 300 guns simultaneously.

http://www.sundayriver.com/winter/snowmaking

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app

Hawk said:

Also 90+% of the time the SB pond has a flow into it that replenishes the water at good rate so your calculation should include some kind of refilling variable to give a true sense of how fast the pond actually empties.

Click to expand...

Agreed, I was presenting worst-case scenario (as in a major drought).

Hawk said:

You have a point as I would bet the Stowe trails may be a bit longer. But the SR trails are certainly wider so I bet in the long run the amount of snow needed is the same. The real number that counts is the amount of guns they can run. I have no idea what those number are.

Click to expand...

The number varies greatly depending on temps though. Ironically you use more guns at higher temps and less at lower...because at lower temps you can pump more GPM through each gun. SB can do 125 guns roughly at LP when at the 30 GPM setting but at colder temps if you up the GPM to 50 per gun you're now maxing at 76 guns. Those were the numbers win previously provided. HKD spec sheets show they can go at even higher GPMs, but you'd need super-cold temps that maybe we don't usually have.

deadheadskier said:

Not sure on total guns at Stowe, but SR claims a pumping capacity of 8100 GPM and over 300 guns simultaneously.

Click to expand...

300 guns at what temp and settings though? I think GPM is the more important measure rather than simultaneous gun count due to the great variation in guns depending on which gun, what settings, what temps, etc.

I noticed that Stowe has reported grooming most of their trails the past couple of nights even though it was warm. SB has not, is that just a function of having more snow on their trails? Or is something else in play as well?

hovercraft said:

I noticed that Stowe has reported grooming most of their trails the past couple of nights even though it was warm. SB has not, is that just a function of having more snow on their trails? Or is something else in play as well?

Click to expand...

Sugarbush keeps grooming to a minimum in warm weather to preserve snow.

Grooming when snow is that warm and wet is generally speaking not a great idea. Traditionally when weather like this happens when SB has more open they will groom a couple beginner routes and leave it at that. With what is open right now they probably figure since they are targeting advanced skiers only, they can help preserve the snow as much as possible by not grooming at all. Stowe on the other hand is advertising that they have skiing available for all ability levels, so most likely to avoid discouraging or disappointing the beginners and intermediates opted to do grooming.

If you do the math it is 27 gpm. I skied there for years and actual worked there after college. I will say this about SR. After a rain storm they would open up the system full blast and over night there would be silky Gun Powder a foot deep on 3 or 4 trails. That was 15-20 years ago and at a much lower elevation than Sugarbush. No stats or statistics or higher math involved. Just my experience there. Now with all the upgrades and new technology I would bet they can do double.

cdskier said:

300 guns at what temp and settings though? I think GPM is the more important measure rather than simultaneous gun count due to the great variation in guns depending on which gun, what settings, what temps, etc.

Click to expand...

Benski is right. Grooming on the base we have now will compact the snow and cause more melting and once it freezes the end result will be a bomb proof surface that will be hard to break up. There is also the concern that the base is still thin in many places and the groomers will expose dirt and rocks as they make their passes.

benski said:

Sugarbush keeps grooming to a minimum in warm weather to preserve snow.

Click to expand...

They have the spruce side for beginners. If preserving snow is an issue then why do they groom all their trails. On the web site they only excluded two trails that were not groomed. What do other mountains do?

hovercraft said:

I noticed that Stowe has reported grooming most of their trails the past couple of nights even though it was warm. SB has not, is that just a function of having more snow on their trails? Or is something else in play as well?

Click to expand...

Today was my first day of the season at Stowe (I have the young 30s pass to both Stowe and SB) and I will say boy was it great they groomed last night. The two trails they didn't groom were a little on the rugged side but did soften up as the day went on. But I got there around 8:15am and those groomed trails were like butter.

From what I've seen, Stowe goes for consistency but their latest snow report says their groomers will "make a game time decision" tonight but will have at least one groomed route down. I mean they are a major ski resort so you probably need at least 1 route groomed to cater to the intermediates where Sugarbush is saying advanced ability levels only.

Also I will say, for all the complaints about Stowe's ritzy vibe...when you pull into the Mansfield lot there's nothing but an old base lodge from the 1950s and the base of several lifts. I parked my car next to the snow surface, walked up a hill and was at the base of the lift within 15-20 seconds. I really like how they've compartmentalized the base development across the road and left Mansfield alone...feels almost like Mount Ellen in that sense when you pull into the lot.

And not having to download and riding one high-speed lift to their advertised 2000 vertical feet with multiple routes down...it was fairly impressive, not going to lie. There gondola trail they made snow on looked very good too. Wonder if they open that this weekend or not. This should be an interesting winter for me to see where I gravitate to more given the mood I'm in at the time. Iv'e never held 2 seasons psses before.

Hopefully if both mountains keep this $500 young 30s pass going I'll be able to do my pre-season skiing at Stowe where they seem to get stuff going quicker, and then do my late season skiing at Sugarbush.

hovercraft said:

They have the spruce side for beginners. If preserving snow is an issue then why do they groom all their trails. On the web site they only excluded two trails that were not groomed. What do other mountains do?

Click to expand...

Most scale back grooming when its warm but if you look at other resorts like Killington, Okemo, Stratton...everyone will at least do some grooming. I think they probably just try to make the best possible surface every day. When I got there this morning the report said it was 34F at the base. That's not warm and the ungroomed trails were pretty crappy early on. I can't imagine they melted a lot of snow grooming last night at barely above freezing temps.

I had several times last year Sugarbush didn't groom to "preserve snow" only to have horrific snow conditions in the morning because it wasn't as warm as they expected or the rain washed it down to rutted and cupped hardpack. I believe they delayed openings a couple times to get the cats up and do some grooming in those cases.

Its a crapshoot...proobably damned if you do and damned if you don't.