Some of the older trail maps even did show Hammerhead as a "snowmaking" trail (just looked and it is on the 1991 through 2002 trail maps marked as snowmaking). Trying to make snow on that trail seems weird with how narrow it is though.
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The "Sugarbush Thread"
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nhskier1969
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A long time ago, didn't they make snow on lower birdland?Well, it's all relative.
Pre LBO there was SOME snowmaking on LP. IIRC they had a York Automated System for Murphy's Glade and parts of Birdland down to Lower Jester. They also had snowmaking on Stein's, Spring Fling, and Ripcord. Additionally, Snowball and parts of Gatehouse had snowmaking. But yes, North was the focus because they could more easily open it earlier in the season and have it be last to close.
LBO invested $28 million in that one season. It was nuts. The lifts were a huge improvement as was the increase in snowmaking. That said, after that one summer, ASC did not have any money left to do much more. Once the hotel was delayed they really cut back. Win (who can speak personally) and his partners inherited a lot of deferred maintenance and a condemned Castlerock Double chair. I also know that over the years we have talked about all the snowmaking pipe that they have replaced because LBO used cheaper grade pipe.
North, in some ways, saw a downgrade under ASC. One now had to ride three lifts to ski the entire mountain. The Snail sucked big time. Their idea was that skiers and riders would ride Slidebrook over from LP and that ME would essentially be another trail pod of sorts. That didn't really work. ASC also moved early and late ops from Ellen to LP.
Not before LBO. LBO added all that snowmaking to Lower Birdland. I recall in the ASC years that they did make a lot of snow there to add another route down. But it is pretty rocky so I don't recall Win's crew making much snow there during my time.
Going back 7-8 years, I don't recall ever seeing snowmaking on Lower Birdland. But I wouldn't count on my recollections.
Lower Birdland first showed as a "snowmaking" trail on the 1995 trail map. It remained marked as a snowmaking trail on the map until 2018 or 2019 (which is odd, as I feel like the hydrants have been gone for a number of years now, although I do remember seeing them back in the early 2000s on some of my earlier trips).
Yeah. The last time I saw snowmaking was way back in 2000-2001 or so. They had a lot of hydrants on it.
No. We did not. Very tough trail with the pitch, rock, double fall line and positioning of the lift and inability to groom.
ME is a grandfathered snowmaking permit with no ability to expand without possibly putting the existing water withdrawal permit in jeopardy. However, one day it might be possible to add snowmaking to a trail like Walt’s and permanently remove it from Exterminator which is still an approved snowmaking trail even though snow is no longer made there. Having a green trail off on Inverness that could be groomed every night would be a big plus.
The $28 million that LBO advertised included the acquisition cost of the resort from Claneil. About $20 million represented capital improvememts, I believe.
I legitimately might cry if snowmaking was ever added to Walts. That is one of the most fun green all natural snow trails around... I think it is a great introduction to a natural trail for "advanced" beginners and something you don't see much of.
Slidebrook87
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It love Walt’s too, but it might make sense, especially if they do that expansion they’ve been hinting about. Inverness is almost always being used by racer kids, ditto for brambles. A groomed way down would be nice for some. Hopefully semi tough stays natural though.
CastlerockMRV
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Similar to Fox / Vixen at MRG but Walt’s has much better pitch.
CastlerockMRV
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If that expansion ends up being the gladed terrain with with a skin track off of Exterminator that’s been discussed before then I’ll cry too. Albeit tears of joy!
Semi Tough Woods and Brambles Woods are 2 of the best runs at ME. Top to bottom tree skiing of that quality would be to die for.
(@Sugarbush sign me up if your need volunteers to come make this happen. I’m handy with the chainsaw!
)Agreed...100%! The few times where I've run a Meet The Mountain tour at ME and conditions were right, I'd take a small group there for a treat! Even better...when I'm all alone, and a few inches of fresh have fallen. Such a pleasure; pristine; and a throwback to the way skiing 'used to be' enjoyed. Sure, it's a 'green'; but I can't imagine anyone who considers themselves a skier not able to appreciate it. Semi-Tough, as a tough blue when it's bumped up, is also great. Snowmaking and grooming (on Walt's) would be regrettable. Let Northstar handle the novices.
I also loved Walt's.
Many years ago before I got to ski the natural trails, I wondered "why not make snow on this trail?" "Why not this trail?" After many years, finally experiencing many trails that I had circled as possible snowmaking trails, the shear thought of snowmaking on those trails struck me with terror. For example, look at a trail like Sleeper or Murphys and what snowmaking has done to them. It used to be Murphy's Glades. Now I think its down to one Glade. Now putting snowmaking into a trail like Moonshine or Twist would do the same thing. With regular snowmaking comes regular grooming. A groomed Moonshine doesn't strike me as a lot of fun as an untouched a'natural Moonshine. Hammerhead would also lose a lot if it got regular snowmaking. Semi-Tough too. God I love those hidden gems off Inverness, especially on a powder day. It was worth the trek across Northway on my board to get freshies even in the afternoon on Brambles, Semi, or Walts. If conditions were real good, it was Exterminator to Northway, just to keep your speed up. The map trailboss posted earlier is THE best Mt Ellen map, as it shows the general layout of Mt Ellen more accurately, but not as easily shown if you're trying to keep the two mountains "continuous".
I feel the trails that have snowmaking are the right number for now. If snowmaking was added anywhere, I'd say a spur line down the CR cutoff, around the lift, and down the runout. It wouldn't help in a low snow year (as CR trails wouldn't get any help from it), but it would give you some more time when the upper reaches still have plenty of snow but the runout is gone... or that last corner before the liftline.
I believe the only trail where hoses are stretched through the woods to reach is Sugar Run and perhaps lower Brambles. I was on when the Bravo headwall was hit (though I was a South guy so I wasn't a part of it). Snowmaking was no longer occurring on Lower Birdland or Exterm when I started c 2011-12. We did have several hydrants labelled "LBL" in the boneyard, and some were reused as needed.
I feel the trails that have snowmaking are the right number for now. If snowmaking was added anywhere, I'd say a spur line down the CR cutoff, around the lift, and down the runout. It wouldn't help in a low snow year (as CR trails wouldn't get any help from it), but it would give you some more time when the upper reaches still have plenty of snow but the runout is gone... or that last corner before the liftline.
I believe the only trail where hoses are stretched through the woods to reach is Sugar Run and perhaps lower Brambles. I was on when the Bravo headwall was hit (though I was a South guy so I wasn't a part of it). Snowmaking was no longer occurring on Lower Birdland or Exterm when I started c 2011-12. We did have several hydrants labelled "LBL" in the boneyard, and some were reused as needed.
That's exactly the main additional place I would want any snow-making added as well. Only other thing I can think of that might have some decent value would be adding a couple hydrants on some of the traverses (i.e. Reverse Traverse or HG Traverse).
Yes, HG Traverse indeed, as it does serve as an alternate access to Heaven's Gate to avoid Downspout. Reverse Traverse "usually" is only utilized when you're trying to get to Heaven's Gate or Castlerock, and Super Bravo is down, and "usually", those cases are few and far between. I can only imagine trying to navigate that trail with whales on it.
I did forget to mention a couple trails we did make snow on that are not shown as having snowmaking on the maps... Pushover Chute, Second Thoughts, and actually, the far end of HG Traverse as well as CR Cutoff. Certain lines around the mountain are "always charged" and if you've got some extra capacity, it doesn't hurt to throw on a gun just downhill of the booster and add some lengths to shoot up the Traverse, or at the cutoff and add some lengths going down. Doesn't hurt, that is, until you have to remove all the hoses or change one out that blew, or you're doing any/all of the above solo. I want to say at one point we did run a gun up the bottom of Moonshine from Spring Fling.
I did forget to mention a couple trails we did make snow on that are not shown as having snowmaking on the maps... Pushover Chute, Second Thoughts, and actually, the far end of HG Traverse as well as CR Cutoff. Certain lines around the mountain are "always charged" and if you've got some extra capacity, it doesn't hurt to throw on a gun just downhill of the booster and add some lengths to shoot up the Traverse, or at the cutoff and add some lengths going down. Doesn't hurt, that is, until you have to remove all the hoses or change one out that blew, or you're doing any/all of the above solo. I want to say at one point we did run a gun up the bottom of Moonshine from Spring Fling.
Yea...Pushover Chute and Second Thoughts still regularly have snow made on them using the lines from other trails. CR Cutoff I also still see whales made and pushed out some years.
Slidebrook87
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It would be really nice if reverse traverse could be modified to have less uphill and to have snowmaking. It would be really nice to be able to easily access Heaven’s Gate and some trails off of Bravo from Valley House on some days and it would further allow for Valley House to be much better suited as a true backup lift to Super Bravo. I don’t know how difficult this would do just with grading, permitting, etc, but it would be nice to have.
nhskier1969
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I agree on reverse traverse. It sucks the only time you need to take it is when Bravo is down. If Bravo is down, it means you are polling Reverse Traverse into a headwind.
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