The "Sugarbush Thread"

jaybird · Jan 4, 2022

Some may find this intetesting ..
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/england-one-cold-snap-away-230000107.html

.. especially the restrictions imposed by the Jones act. (as to LNG supply fuel for many NE generating stations.)

Particularly.. ". A key stipulation of the law is that foreign-owned ships cannot transport goods between two US ports – only ships built, owned, and crewed by Americans ..

Sadly .. 3 Mile Island was a death blow.

Bosco DaSkia · Jan 4, 2022

mtl1076 said:
2) the curtailable program is not due to lack of power. It’s an economic “thing”. Gmp trys to shave their peak usage where they would be buying the excess capacity at a premium. I assume from hydro quebec or something. Gmp passes some of those cost savings on to those who are in the curtailable program. It’s a significant savings over the course of a year for ski areas. An area can choose not to be in the curtailable program but it will cost $$ to do so. Question is does the lost snowmaking time outweigh the $$ savings. For most, it doesn’t.

1dog said:
Its the 21st century and we are low on available power. . . .that amazes me.
We have ability to develop hydro, nuclear, nat. gas ( at less than half the carbon issue as other fossil fuels), as well as coal and oil for back up ( like what was used at COP21 when the wind farms failed)
If its price, one can understand not paying the price, but when its limited by the power company because they can't generate enough - that just seems like we are in a time warp.
Wonder what the kilowatt usage is compared to last 5-7 years for the state of Vermont.

Thats different than limiting power usage.

The problem has nothing to do with either power generation or economic incentives. This is a transmission issue. The mad river valley simply does not have the transmission capability to supply the power needed for snow making on the mountain and for heating all of the homes that are going to need to be heating on such a cold night that snowmaking would be fruitful. If they upgraded the transmission lines, then they could do both things without any problem. This problem does not only affect Sugarbush. Stowe is also at the end of the transmission line and their needs come after the needs of the town of Stowe.

The ski areas are not having curtailment imposed upon them. The curtailment‘s are part of their overall electrical contract. In order to get the cheaper rates if they would like to have the majority of the time, they agree to put up with curtailment at high energy demand times.

mtl1076 · Jan 5, 2022

pinnoke said:
I believe this is the correct interpretation. Based on shadyjay's procedural outline, and multiplied by perhaps more than 1 line, and 1 curtailment, the question raised is appropriate. Perhaps GMP can make it more interesting by factoring in (lack of) natural snowfall and give Sugarbush a break!!!!!!

Curtailments are called across the entire GMP system, not specific to a single ski area. GMP does work with ski areas (and I'd imagine other big users) to try and not cause too much trouble with curtailments, but GMP has certain requirements of their own and sometimes they are left with little choice but to call one. Like I said, a ski area has options to not be in the program, but the cost is not insignificant.

mtl1076 · Jan 5, 2022

Bosco DaSkia said:
The problem has nothing to do with either power generation or economic incentives. This is a transmission issue. The mad river valley simply does not have the transmission capability to supply the power needed for snow making on the mountain and for heating all of the homes that are going to need to be heating on such a cold night that snowmaking would be fruitful. If they upgraded the transmission lines, then they could do both things without any problem. This problem does not only affect Sugarbush. Stowe is also at the end of the transmission line and their needs come after the needs of the town of Stowe.

The ski areas are not having curtailment imposed upon them. The curtailment‘s are part of their overall electrical contract. In order to get the cheaper rates if they would like to have the majority of the time, they agree to put up with curtailment at high energy demand times.

I know nothing of the transmission restraints but the curtailable program was never explained to me as an issue with transmission. There are curtailable events in the summer. Are you telling me those are due to lack of ability to supply/transmit power? There may be more air conditioners running, but I can't imagine that gets anywhere close to the amount of power ski areas use to make snow.

WinS · Jan 5, 2022

Great to see such well informed posts by Shady and Mtl1076.

KustyTheKlown · Jan 5, 2022

i was gonna do sugarbush saturday but this Friday snow looks like a bust and Saturday looks really really cold

i think sunday only in soVt (barf stratton) is more likely for me this weekend

Newpylong · Jan 5, 2022

Regarding curtailment: That is the largest factor why Killington chooses to still lease a lot of Diesel compressed air. There also is limited amount of power in general into the basin. They own roughly 38,000 CFM of in house electric and lease (roughly) an equal amount of air for the first half of the season, some of that departing after the World Cup. It allows them to mix and match but largely not be effected.

tumbler · Jan 5, 2022

Back to the snow report on the app and website- worthless. Every day they say it is going to "soften up." With temps staying below freezing, nothing is going to soften up. Not just because of the snow report but in conjunction with other things around the resort, the soul of the place is slowly leaving and becoming just another area. I'm worried it is going the way of a Vail mountain...

skiur · Jan 5, 2022

tumbler said:
Back to the snow report on the app and website- worthless. Every day they say it is going to "soften up." With temps staying below freezing, nothing is going to soften up. Not just because of the snow report but in conjunction with other things around the resort, the soul of the place is slowly leaving and becoming just another area. I'm worried it is going the way of a Vail mountain...

What did you think was going to happen when alterra bought them?

tumbler · Jan 5, 2022

Agreed, but the pitch was that Alterra was going to be hands off and let each resort have it's own identity. I was too optimistic.

skiur · Jan 5, 2022

At least they aren't doing as bad as Vail, but the bottom line is going to run things as the shareholders have to be kept happy.

KustyTheKlown · Jan 5, 2022

alterra is privately held, so the stock price is less of a thing.

i also would give sugarbush the benefit of the doubt since the season has been so shit for weather so far. my one day at sugarbush so far was operationally sound, uncrowded, and fun. the website/app sucks but there's other ways to get good weather and conditions info for the region, especially with mad river glen being adjacent and having good no bullshit reporting, and the single chair weather blog focusing exclusively on that part of the state.

thetrailboss · Jan 5, 2022

tumbler said:
Agreed, but the pitch was that Alterra was going to be hands off and let each resort have it's own identity. I was too optimistic.

Exactly. As I posted back in November, Deer Valley's COO resigned literally days before the start of the season (or was let go). He had publicly spoken as to his desire to limit the IKON Pass to reduce crowding. I imagine that Alterra was not happy about that. Alterra tapped a Mammoth Bro to take over.

A source at Solitude told me that Alterra calls the shots there too.

Hawk · Jan 5, 2022

I personally think that all decisions at Sugarbush this year are coming from John Hammonds team with input from his trusted friends like Win. I have not heard any scuttlebutt to the contrary and I have asked around. It looks like they sink or swim with whatever they choose to do. The only exception was that they were given the direction to go with App Altura wanted to use. The snowmaking is an existing problem, the power company and weather is not under thier control.

My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created. cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates. This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here. Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like. We will see.

The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up. I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion. None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds. Not worth it to them. I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them. Just my opinion. Actually the opinion of many.

thetrailboss · Jan 5, 2022

Hawk said:
My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created. cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates. This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here. Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like. We will see.

The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up. I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion. None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds. Not worth it to them. I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them. Just my opinion. Actually the opinion of many.

Good points. As to the family and friends, like Vail, Alterra's main focus is the IKON Pass product.

NYSnowflake · Jan 5, 2022

tumbler said:
Back to the snow report on the app and website- worthless. Every day they say it is going to "soften up." With temps staying below freezing, nothing is going to soften up. Not just because of the snow report but in conjunction with other things around the resort, the soul of the place is slowly leaving and becoming just another area. I'm worried it is going the way of a Vail mountain...

Yeah, I find the snow reporting to be an absolute

snore… same old copy and paste drivel day after day… no useful tips or insight on the available terrain. Uninspiring.

Smellytele · Jan 5, 2022

Hawk said:
I personally think that all decisions at Sugarbush this year are coming from John Hammonds team with input from his trusted friends like Win. I have not heard any scuttlebutt to the contrary and I have asked around. It looks like they sink or swim with whatever they choose to do. The only exception was that they were given the direction to go with App Altura wanted to use. The snowmaking is an existing problem, the power company and weather is not under thier control.

My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created. cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates. This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here. Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like. We will see.

The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up. I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion. None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds. Not worth it to them. I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them. Just my opinion. Actually the opinion of many.

The opinion of those who have had passes for over 10 years.

SkiTheEast · Jan 5, 2022

Hawk said:
I personally think that all decisions at Sugarbush this year are coming from John Hammonds team with input from his trusted friends like Win. I have not heard any scuttlebutt to the contrary and I have asked around. It looks like they sink or swim with whatever they choose to do. The only exception was that they were given the direction to go with App Altura wanted to use. The snowmaking is an existing problem, the power company and weather is not under thier control.

My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created. cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates. This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here. Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like. We will see.

The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up. I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion. None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds. Not worth it to them. I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them. Just my opinion. Actually the opinion of many.

Great point on the friends and family. The Ikon pass advertises the friends and family discount as some kind of great benefit when in reality it's useless at Sugarbush. They've set their window rate at $180 (highest in the east I believe) - which makes Ikon discount tickets $135. Hardly a bargain when there is only a few days on the calendar that are more than that ($139) with the majority between 110 and 120. So Sugarbush has found a way to participate in the letter of the program but not necessarily the spirit.

Understand they are probably doing it for crowd management but not really a useful benefit for the full-time Sugarbush skier who wants to bring their friends and family up for a day at the mountain.

Slidebrook87 · Jan 5, 2022

NYSnowflake said:
Yeah, I find the snow reporting to be an absolute snore… same old copy and paste drivel day after day… no useful tips or insight on the available terrain. Uninspiring.

Especially from a mountain that used to have some of the best snow reports around...

SkiTheEast · Jan 5, 2022

Would really be nice to get a nice walloping dump. Feel like we're all just sitting around nitpicking because mother nature has been holding out on giving us the good stuff. Bet it's hard to write an inspiring snow report when 30% of the trails are open and not much new terrain coming online yet I suppose.

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