The "Sugarbush Thread"

65%skis35boarders right there your theory doesn’t work not everyone is an expert so. Who cares ,people pay for it. you sound like a snobby old skier


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Hawk said:

Yes drjeff is right. The type of skiers that cut the initial turns make the start and other follow and build the bumps. The initial bumps on Castlerock are formed in all natural uncompacted snow. They are formed from usually expert skiers that hiked over. They make tighter turns and the bumps form tighter. Once you groom them down and the lift is running, all kinds of different types of skiers are introduced the pattern changes to wider turns so bigger bumps. Also the groomed noe compacted snow does not cu the same and that little bit of new snow on top is not enough to make new ones the same way. I will say once again. Go to Mad River and see the difference on Catamount bowl, Chute or Fall Line. There is a difference. You will never convince me otherwise.

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Can you really compare the moguls at Sugarbush with those at Madriver? I would think snowboarders have a major impact on the quality of bumps and how they form. Especially as they get larger.

Maybe it’s just me, but i don’t see many boarders on castlerock.

HowieT2 said:

Maybe it’s just me, but i don’t see many boarders on castlerock.

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I'd agree. If I had to take an educated guess based on what I've seen, I'd say only 5-10% of the traffic on CR is boarders. That may even be a high estimate. So even if they did have an impact on mogul formation (not saying they do as I've known some boarders that could zipper bumps better than most skiers), the impact would be so minimal just due to the low volume on the trails on CR.

I'd be somewhat curious what some of the MRG people think about grooming moguls and the impact it has. There are a handful of trails at MRG that only see a groomer once in a while and then rebump up (Canyon/Grand Canyon, top of Quacky). How is the quality of those bumps when they reform?

Snowboarders are the Problem. Bumps started to change shape when the ski companies started changing the shape of skis. They were copying the shapes of snowboards to make skiing more fun. This in turn changed the shape of moguls.

I was an alpine skier from 1976 - 1982. In 82 I started telemarking and raced that circuit for years and spent a lot of time at MRG. In 1994 I started snowboarding and have never looked back. Now I only ride MRG early season on hikes. When I talk to my old tele friends, they complain the bumps are no longer as good as they used to be. It's not the snowboarders, it's the skis themselves.

Wow, this morphed a bit. My opinion on snow boarders is that good snow boarders can ski bumps just fine. Also I will agree that a good majority of boarders skip the bumps. I do not see a huge impact from snowboarders over at Castlerock. This conversation always brings wide differing opinions. I spend about a 1/3 of my typical ski day at Castlerock on a usual ski weekend. I stand by what I said previously and disagree totally that grooming makes better bumps in the long run. But the mountain will do what it sees best for the whole and whatever is said here has little to no impact on their plan. I guess I will be seeing more of my intermediate friends in the line at castlerock. ;-)

They will groom and the bumps will come back pretty much the same as they are now. Enjoy the GS turns while you can.
If ya can't ski 'em, then you better look at yourself, 'cause there are folks out there rocking them, as is!
On skis and boards!!!

I have to agree with Shredmonkey, its the new shapes of skis that have allowed many more types of skiers to tackle more types of terrain. So have shaped skis and poor turn types creating larger more spread out bumps.

STREETSKIER said:

65%skis35boarders right there your theory doesn’t work not everyone is an expert so. Who cares ,people pay for it. you sound like a snobby old skier

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No need to get defensive. It's just an observation. Nothing to do with Castle Rock or Sugarbush. My home mountain seeds a lot of bumps and I've seen it first hand. A weird asymmetry between right and left troughs on some steep lines that made complete sense after watching some boarders ride them. It's a lot harder to make wide curving troughs with your toe edge, since it involves turning your back to the fall-line or twisting in a very unnatural way. It's much easier to swoop out the tail of a board when turning on your heel edge and facing downhill. I'm not saying this happens often - conditions and traffic have to be right and the bumps have to be pretty immature and soft. I've seen may share of boarders who can rip bumps. And I fully agree with those in the thread who noted that shaped skis have had much more of an impact on how natural bumps have changed over the past 20-25 years than boarders. But the idea that board traffic will create the same kind of bump lines as skier traffic when the mechanics of the two are so different - well, I'm not convinced.

FWIW i'm a 20+ year boarder who lives in the bumps all.day.long. Middle Earth, Lift Line and Paradise are where you'll find me 75% of the time. I admit to tearing the head off of moguls if I get into a bit of trouble - I always make a silent apology to my fellow skiers/riders

With that said, if any of the boarders on this thread can recommend a new board for me i'm all ears! Alpine Options just called and said my board is toast and no longer tune-able. Not a surprise as I've had it 5 years or so. I'm going to stop in to Splinters Sat am and try out a couple of demos. Sounds like they have nice selection.

If you are a one board guy, get a Burton Skeleton Key. It does everything really, really well!
Travis has a 154 demo

Shredmonkey254 said:

If you are a one board guy, get a Burton Skeleton Key. It does everything really, really well!
Travis has a 154 demo

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Thanks! i'll check it out Sat. Definitely a one board "gal" :smile:

Domeskier said:

No need to get defensive. It's just an observation. Nothing to do with Castle Rock or Sugarbush. My home mountain seeds a lot of bumps and I've seen it first hand. A weird asymmetry between right and left troughs on some steep lines that made complete sense after watching some boarders ride them. It's a lot harder to make wide curving troughs with your toe edge, since it involves turning your back to the fall-line or twisting in a very unnatural way. It's much easier to swoop out the tail of a board when turning on your heel edge and facing downhill. I'm not saying this happens often - conditions and traffic have to be right and the bumps have to be pretty immature and soft. I've seen may share of boarders who can rip bumps. And I fully agree with those in the thread who noted that shaped skis have had much more of an impact on how natural bumps have changed over the past 20-25 years than boarders. But the idea that board traffic will create the same kind of bump lines as skier traffic when the mechanics of the two are so different - well, I'm not convinced.

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Good thread and discussion. Rider here, 30 years exp starting in 1989, 100 days+/yr, etc. Riding has changed the last few years in that most everyone now, due to modern board technology, rides a duck stance with similar, symmetrical angles front and (-) rear. It took me a while to change from alpine (both feet pointing forward, shoulders facing the fall line) to duck (sideways stance) but I do prefer it now and toe-turn initiation is precise and tight. In the old alpine stance days, there were definitely more different turns shapes, toe and heelside - today not so much. Additionally, I have many boards in current rotation and they all ride differently; I suspect the same for skiers, say all-mountain carvers vs powder skies vs race skis, etc.
I was on CR Liftline today with the thread in mind and observed there was no rhythm at all to the bumps and barely a snowboard ventures there. What you do see more of at CR and MRG are tele skiers and (perhaps not at MRG) kids with no poles in the backseat. No-pole skiers are skiing their tails more than their tips so this too changes bump shape.
There are just too many types of skis and skiers, riders and boards, tele-skiers (two main types here too with knee-to-the-ski vs the more elegant upright stance), park rats, etc to make any generalizations. My 2¢.
Damn cold today but conditions are excellent and a clipper to move through tomorrow. Bump runs' leeward left sides did better with lots of blown in snow.
To smac75: Travis will get you on the right board.

ducky said:

To smac75: Travis will get you on the right board.

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I'm a skier, but I'll say just in general that Travis is a great guy. Obviously have no experience with boards themselves, but I do go to his shop for other accessories (goggles, etc). Very fair prices too. The extra lens he ordered for me a few weeks ago was actually cheaper from him than it would have been online. (I didn't even find out the price until I was paying for it as I picked it up because I knew he would be reasonable).

ducky said:

Good thread and discussion. Rider here, 30 years exp starting in 1989, 100 days+/yr, etc. Riding has changed the last few years in that most everyone now, due to modern board technology, rides a duck stance with similar, symmetrical angles front and (-) rear. It took me a while to change from alpine (both feet pointing forward, shoulders facing the fall line) to duck (sideways stance) but I do prefer it now and toe-turn initiation is precise and tight.

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Interesting. It looks like the boarders competing in slalom events and hitting those incredible angles while carving still have both feet facing downhill, but I definitely see most boarders using a duck stance these days. I imagine that is due in no small measure to the influence park riding and the need to land/take off switch. I still get the impression that new boarders or boarder who find themselves in over their heads tend to dig in on their heel sides when the start getting too much speed. That would be my instinctive way of stopping, but I have no idea if that's how new boarders are taught to stop.

Domeskier said:

Interesting. It looks like the boarders competing in slalom events and hitting those incredible angles while carving still have both feet facing downhill, but I definitely see most boarders using a duck stance these days. I imagine that is due in no small measure to the influence park riding and the need to land/take off switch. I still get the impression that new boarders or boarder who find themselves in over their heads tend to dig in on their heel sides when the start getting too much speed. That would be my instinctive way of stopping, but I have no idea if that's how new boarders are taught to stop.

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You are correct re race boards. Different tech, hard boots, metal bindings, canting. Sweet to watch a good hard-booter carving with hands down. In the late 80s and early 90s, many boards were asym and you had to buy either regular or goofy. Ester Ledecka (CZ) won the Olympic gold medal in Snowboard GS just a few days after stunning the ski racers and winning the Super G gold medal from a high bib number start.

Ester on skis...

ducky said:

Ester Ledecka (CZ) won the Olympic gold medal in Snowboard GS just a few days after stunning the ski racers and winning the Super G gold medal from a high bib number start.

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That was awesome!

Yup- if you are good at going fast downhill, the equipment is secondary. You will be proficient on anything. I say after 30 years, sh**ty skiers and sh**ty snowboarders do equal damage to bump lines and narrow approach lines in the woods (if you believe that sort of thing). Sideways is the same in both languages to me and now that ski and snowboard lengths are almost the same you can’t really tell the difference from their tracks.

I still say that we all had to start somewhere, we were not born experts. Plenty of room for all of us. I welcome anyone that is willing to flail their way down just about any trail. This is why we ski. After skiing most of my life in virtually every conceivable situation, I still feel I learn something each and every day I ski. The learning and growth never stops, and as far as I can see, it never will.

The "Sugarbush Thread"

smac75 said:

FWIW i'm a 20+ year boarder who lives in the bumps all.day.long. Middle Earth, Lift Line and Paradise are where you'll find me 75% of the time. I admit to tearing the head off of moguls if I get into a bit of trouble - I always make a silent apology to my fellow skiers/riders

With that said, if any of the boarders on this thread can recommend a new board for me i'm all ears! Alpine Options just called and said my board is toast and no longer tune-able. Not a surprise as I've had it 5 years or so. I'm going to stop in to Splinters Sat am and try out a couple of demos. Sounds like they have nice selection.

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Chech out burton the family tree woman’s line The boards rule. Learn to carve not skid ok


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