The "Sugarbush Thread"

I'm not totally familiar with the backend but I'm assuming like most resorts the limit at marginal temperatures is compressed air, not water. This changes as the wetbulb drops. New low energy guns let more snow be made earlier by using air more efficiently - an HKD Impulse has a 4:1 air water ratio (80 cfm, 20 gpm) at high pressure.* A straight air water gun might require 500 cfm to output the same amount of water at the same temp. There is absolutely a difference in surface quality at marginal temperatures, if you want quality snow. If you want base snow, there isn't - both will make a wet pile if you ask them to.

So, if you have a fixed amount of air, say 20,000 cfm, and a fixed amount of water, say 5,000 gpm, and we can assume a typical 10:1 air water ratio. I usually see 13:1 but we can be optimistic. That's 2,000 gpm at startup with old school guns, focused on one trail.

Compare to the modern system, with the full 5,000 gpm running on four trails. More than twice the snow gets made - even after accounting for drainage and other losses it's double at least. However, it's spread thinner, so to get the same base depth it takes twice as much run time. Early season, the first few trails take longer. The flipside is that more trails see more snowmaking sooner, the mountain opens faster overall, etc. That's assuming the same amount of snow gets made, that management doesn't put a little extra onto race trails, parks, or main avenues since the snow is on 33% off sale.

There are times that you need big air. A hybrid approach is better than scrapping all rats. Sometimes one pile tonight is better than four piles in two days - super low air guns like early Snowlogics, TA's EVO or TL6, often have this issue, where they use no air but take forever, not just a long time. But generally low energy guns are a godsend.



*This is very configurable - from well over 100 cfm down to below 50 - but 80 is a good baseline.

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I'm a leftover big air guy but it has gone the way of the rotary phone. I understand why the new guns are used, snowmaking is expensive. I just wish that the guns were moved during gun runs to give an even spread and not 20' whales and grass in between. I also wish they would do refreshers, there are towers all over the hill, on cold nights light up Murphy's or Fling or grinder or whatever and let them have 16 hours of run time for some fresh, DRY snowmaking. This could also be a product of staffing.

FWIW- I heard quite a few stories this week of the parking lot employees berating people. I get that the out of state plates can be rude, dumb and clueless but their first contact with a resort employee should be welcoming. Just thought I would pass along.

Turning towers/dragging sleds is a crew problem, not the gun's fault. We have tower mounted big air and I see the same problem. As for refreshes, if there isn't a base deficit I'd usually rather see more terrain, no? Until late season or 100% at least.

I'll definitely agree that having Z-1 and Rat sleds every 150' down a mile long run is a hell of a lot more fun - and more work - than the same trail with low E towers.

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I am looking forward to the day when they can automate the whole process. In my snowmaking not wet dream - I would love to see permanently mounted towers with cameras - all the guns could be controlled by remote. I have to believe I will see that technology in my lifetime. Then the idea of a trail refresh is just a matter of a few clicks on a computer - not having to rely on seasonal workers showing up.

Hawk said:

The new Philosophy is not to upgrade and grow the capacity via larger equipment. Instead it's buy more efficient stuff so they can blow the same amount with less energy thus conserving resources. It is my belief that the new guns do not blow as much and as good as the old guns with more air. But Win and I have debated this before and I do not wish to get into this. Not blowing the top with a deep base was a decision. I think they chose other trails because there was a good base up there before the rain. My guess.....the natural base wasn't good enough for the amount of wind, rain, fog and temps. I guess they chose poorly.

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Oh, that debate. You and I are on the same side. I noticed now almost ten years ago that they were slipping behind the competition when it came to snowmaking.

tumbler said:

I'm a leftover big air guy but it has gone the way of the rotary phone. I understand why the new guns are used, snowmaking is expensive. I just wish that the guns were moved during gun runs to give an even spread and not 20' whales and grass in between. I also wish they would do refreshers, there are towers all over the hill, on cold nights light up Murphy's or Fling or grinder or whatever and let them have 16 hours of run time for some fresh, DRY snowmaking. This could also be a product of staffing.

FWIW- I heard quite a few stories this week of the parking lot employees berating people. I get that the out of state plates can be rude, dumb and clueless but their first contact with a resort employee should be welcoming. Just thought I would pass along.

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Rude employees. Sounds like Alta. If the skiing is bad, it gets people down. Agree that resort employees should be professional.

djd66 said:

I am looking forward to the day when they can automate the whole process. In my snowmaking not wet dream - I would love to see permanently mounted towers with cameras - all the guns could be controlled by remote. I have to believe I will see that technology in my lifetime. Then the idea of a trail refresh is just a matter of a few clicks on a computer - not having to rely on seasonal workers showing up.

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It’s around now. I am not sure how reliable or expensive it is. I assume one of those is a big problem.

Do they make anything that can rotate the tower guns like tower mounted fan guns? or something simpler (mechanical non-powered) like how a sprinkler works?

Smellytele said:

Do they make anything that can rotate the tower guns like tower mounted fan guns? or something simpler (mechanical non-powered) like how a sprinkler works?

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I was thinking the same thing. The tower guns are heavy, so that could be an issue. Having move slowly, like 180 degrees per hour might be smart.

benski said:

I was thinking the same thing. The tower guns are heavy, so that could be an issue. Having move slowly, like 180 degrees per hour might be smart.

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All I know is we can control drones and robots on Mars,.... this can’t be that far off

djd66 said:

All I know is we can control drones and robots on Mars,.... this can’t be that far off

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If you have extremely deep pockets anything is possible. Wasn't the Mars Rover cost something like $2.5B? I'm sure if someone has that type of cash around you could develop a fully automated snowmaking system to cover an entire mountain. :razz:

Ahhh, the great snowmaking debate. ‘Nothing like some rainy cutters to bring out the nostalgia for the old snow guns.
Clipper moving in tonight and I just happen to be up. Maybe tomorrow will see a nice natural refresh.

benski said:

It’s around now. I am not sure how reliable or expensive it is. I assume one of those is a big problem.

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Yep, it is. http://www.hkdsnowmakers.com/klik-auto.asp http://www.hkdsnowmakers.com/products-isno-controls.asp

I’m sure it is not cheap. I have to believe full mountain automated systems like this will be more common in the future.

Klik doesn't yet rotate low energy guns, just fans. It does start, adjust and stop low energy guns with almost no delay.

A fan gun is much easier to balance than a low energy gun. The main tube on the low energy gun leans out over the trail, binding up the bearing surface - usually 4" pipe - and generally being heavy to move from the base and also amplifying the force of the wind at the head of the gun. An oscillator will have to account for that extra weight that's not present on most fangun designs. It's usually easier to design a wider spray pattern from the beginning, rather than a powered oscillator - look at the new triple Baby SG2 from Ratnik, the double Borax from TA, the Impulse or Method compared to a Phazer from HKD, or the double Eos from DemacLenko.

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The Sugarbush App was updated this morning. You can now "pinch out" the webcam images and see better what's going on.

3" at my house today. Should be good up at the hill with lots of grooming last night and still snowing. Day 40.

IceEidolon said:

Klik doesn't yet rotate low energy guns, just fans. It does start, adjust and stop low energy guns with almost no delay.

A fan gun is much easier to balance than a low energy gun. The main tube on the low energy gun leans out over the trail, binding up the bearing surface - usually 4" pipe - and generally being heavy to move from the base and also amplifying the force of the wind at the head of the gun. An oscillator will have to account for that extra weight that's not present on most fangun designs. It's usually easier to design a wider spray pattern from the beginning, rather than a powered oscillator - look at the new triple Baby SG2 from Ratnik, the double Borax from TA, the Impulse or Method compared to a Phazer from HKD, or the double Eos from DemacLenko.

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You seem to be very knowledgeable on snow making and the equipment. What your background?

Automation is definitely in the future. We are actually trying two towers up by the Valley House. It will work on towers where you can bring in electrical current but towers will not work everywhere and power can not get everywhere yet.

tumbler said:

I'm a leftover big air guy but it has gone the way of the rotary phone. I understand why the new guns are used, snowmaking is expensive. I just wish that the guns were moved during gun runs to give an even spread and not 20' whales and grass in between. I also wish they would do refreshers, there are towers all over the hill, on cold nights light up Murphy's or Fling or grinder or whatever and let them have 16 hours of run time for some fresh, DRY snowmaking. This could also be a product of staffing.

FWIW- I heard quite a few stories this week of the parking lot employees berating people. I get that the out of state plates can be rude, dumb and clueless but their first contact with a resort employee should be welcoming. Just thought I would pass along.

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I have not heard any complaints, but if anyone sees an employee being rude to anyone, I hope it will be brought to our attention as we do not accept that behavior. That also goes for any guest being rude to any of my teammates.

Conditions are sweet on the mountain. I did paradise, domino, splis ripcord bellow the top of spills, paradise and a woods run. All good. Looking to do Castlerock after lunch.

NEW SUBJECT AND I NEED YOUR HELP:

As you know we encourage off-hour skinning at both LP and ME. We do have a policy on the website and designated routes and hours. They are designated so for both the safety of the skinners as well as our employees. Recently, we have had numerous people especially at Mount Ellen not following this policy and skinning and skiing down in areas they should not be. Our groomers have had some close calls and are really concerned about hitting someone. This is not fair to them. Skinning is a privilege and we want it to continue, but I need everyone's help to spread the word that this must be done according to our policy, or we will have no choice but to ban skinning. A number of homeowners at Mount Ellen have also complained that cars have blocked their driveways and are entering Mount Ellen and skiing down where they should not be. A few irresponsible people could ruin this for the many who follow the policy. Many thanks for spreading the word.