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sugarloafers pass pulled for no legit reason

skiing is life

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just about the biggest pile of bullshit ive seen this season

a man had his pass pulled today (but refunded) for posting unneccesary and derogatory comments on an internet forum about boyne resorts management. sometimes captitialism seems worse than communism. wow i just wrote that?

heres the infamous thread

http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/viewtopic.php?t=2383

the post that got his pass pulled was:

Nice work-in at the bottom of the article by marketing to assure potential Cu$tomers that the death was not related to conditions....

now that mans pass was refunded to him but he is "exiled from the resort" if he tries to buy a lift ticket he will be tresspassing and could be arrested

sugarloaf management: you just dug yourselves a deeper hole. mainstream skier internet forums know all about this. you just lost a good amount of customers.
 
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mondeo

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this goes huegly against our first amendmant. i hope he sues.
No conflict with the 1st amendment. That only applies to congress making laws. Private entities an make what conditions they like.

Whether he can sue or not probably depends on the passholder's agreement he signed. Given that he got a refund, I doubt he'd get anywhere.

He deserved it, too. Completely inappropriate.
 

skiing is life

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your right about 1st amendment

but inapropriate?

ok, put yourself in this guys shoes for a second. this season you shell out... god only knows how much cash for a season pass. then these idiots decide to take it away when he posts on even a non official forum. why? its unnessasary
 

riverc0il

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Unreal. Perhaps that post may have been bad taste/form considering someone just died. But to pull someone's season pass for an internet comment, let alone that type of comment (honestly, fairly mild compared to some resort bashing that happens online) is asinine.
 

jsul

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According to the Sugarloaf website Ethan Austin is the Sugarloaf communications manager and a graduate of Tufts University. His statement is in qoutations. Reasonable and prudent individuals have the right to express an opinion on the purpose of his quoted remark.
 

Love to Ski

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thats crap for sure!!!!

What that guy said was nothing! The managers statement was in quotes and what this guy said was an opinion.... and opinions are allowed to be said by all. Irrelevant on how appropriate or not, its his right to say it. For them to revoke his pass for such a mild comment or any comment in that fact is absolutely redictulous!! I dont care if he said the manager is an a$$ and their slopes are $h!t... he has the right to express himself with out punishment. Also, I do not think the comment was innapropriate. He was just saying that the owners were trying to cover their a$$es on the conditions the slope was in and he thought that was crap to not take some blame in the accident... at least thats how I interpreted it... so to me that is nothing and not in poor taste at all to the family or skier. He should at least look into a law suet, whether he can or not I do not know but I think its worth looking into.
 

Geoff

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I'm sure this wasn't the first time the guy slammed Boyne on the internet. There's no law that compels an enterprise to do business with you. They gave the guy his money back. He wasn't damaged. He can take his business elsewhere. Assuming he's a white male, he has no grounds to sue.
 

riverc0il

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I'm sure this wasn't the first time the guy slammed Boyne on the internet. There's no law that compels an enterprise to do business with you. They gave the guy his money back. He wasn't damaged. He can take his business elsewhere. Assuming he's a white male, he has no grounds to sue.
Just because it is legally right does not mean it is the right thing to do. Business absolutely can refuse to serve particular customers (not based on broad based discrimination but particular customers for particular legitimate reasons). Does not seem like negative discussion on the internet is appropriate, IMO.
 

hardline

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well acording to the season pass term they have every right to yank his pass is it right no can they yes.

2008/2009 Season Pass - Terms & Conditions of Use
1. Season Passes MUST BE VISIBLE to lift attendants at all times.
2. The New England Gold Season Passes are valid any day the designated resort is open for skiing/riding during the
2008/2009 winter season. The New England Silver Maine Pass, New England Bronze Midweek Pass, New England
College, and other season passes may have other restrictions including certain black-out dates. All multi-resort passes
are valid only at those designated resorts which are owned by Boyne USA, Inc. In the event of the sale or transfer of
any resort, Boyne USA, Inc reserves the right to terminate the acceptance of multi-resort passes at the transferred
resort.
3. Season Passes must be paid in full and the Express Acceptance of Risks, Release, Indemnification & Forum
Selection Agreement form must be signed or accepted on-line, before actual passes will be issued.
4. Lost or stolen passes may be replaced for a fee.
5. Pass holders who forget their pass will be issued a complimentary day ticket once during the 08-09 ski season. If the
pass is forgotten on subsequent visits, a full priced lift ticket must be purchased.
6. Season Passes are non-refundable, non-transferable and not for resale.
7. All lift privileges granted hereby shall terminate immediately if the Season Pass is used by other than the person
named thereon.
8. All Season Pass holders are expected to observe certain rules and policies. Any of the following violations may be
grounds for total revocation of lift privileges without any refunds:
• Skiing or snowboarding too fast or recklessly as to endanger others.
• Skiing or snowboarding beyond Closed Area signs or beyond Area Boundary signs.
• Leaving a scene of an accident in which you are involved.
• Jumping out of lift chairs.
• Engaging in abusive or rude language and/or behavior on Boyne USA, Inc resorts’ premises.
• Engaging in activities for monetary gain that directly compete with the business of Boyne USA, Inc resorts while
on Boyne USA, Inc resorts’ premises, including, but not limited to, the resale of lift products.
• Any other activities that the Boyne USA, Inc resorts deem inappropriate.
9. Adult Passes (ages 19-64), Teen Passes (ages 13-18), Junior Passes (ages 6-12), Senior Passes (ages 65-79), and
Super Senior (ages 80 and over) are based on the age of the Season Pass holder as of November 1, 2008.
10. To qualify for a College Season Pass the applicant must be a full-time college student (12+ credits per semester).
In addition, all applicants must provide a valid picture ID and an original signed letter from the Registrar or Bursar’s
office, embossed with the school seal, stating full-time status for the Winter 2008 semester. Applicants must sign a
Verification of Status Form authorizing their college to release information sufficient to verify applicants’ full-time
status. STUDENT ID ALONE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
‘YOUR RESPONSIBILITY CODE’
Skiing and snowboarding can be enjoyed in many ways. At ski areas you may see people using alpine,
snowboard, telemark, cross-country, or other specialized ski equipment, such as that used by disabled or
other skiers. Regardless of how you decide to enjoy the slopes, always show courtesy to others and be
aware that there are elements of risk in skiing that common sense and personal awareness can help
reduce. Observe the code listed below and share with other skiers the responsibility for a great skiing
experience.
1. Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people and objects.
2. People ahead of you have the right of way; it is your responsibility to avoid them.
3. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
4. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
5. Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
6. Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
7. Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
KNOW THE CODE. IT’S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
This is a partial list. Be safety conscious. Officially endorsed by: National Ski Areas Association.
 

ZYDECORICH

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I'm sure this wasn't the first time the guy slammed Boyne on the internet. There's no law that compels an enterprise to do business with you. They gave the guy his money back. He wasn't damaged. He can take his business elsewhere. Assuming he's a white male, he has no grounds to sue.

it seems to me this guy got screwed. to take his pass away for a comment on a site thats not their own is absurd.it would also be absurd if it was their own site. an episode like that is going to draw some kind of criticism whether they were at fault or not. the resorts media people and or lawyer should have advised them that some sort of backlash would come down and not over react. if they are at fault or not is to be seen, but lashing out like that over a comment seems like overkill and a bit paranoid. the white male comment is equally absurd.
 

Love to Ski

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it seems to me this guy got screwed. To take his pass away for a comment on a site thats not their own is absurd.it would also be absurd if it was their own site. An episode like that is going to draw some kind of criticism whether they were at fault or not. The resorts media people and or lawyer should have advised them that some sort of backlash would come down and not over react. If they are at fault or not is to be seen, but lashing out like that over a comment seems like overkill and a bit paranoid. The white male comment is equally absurd.

well said!!
 

deadheadskier

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Good thing for Highwaystar that Boyne doesn't own Killington, he'd be in the Rutland jail by now :lol:
 

Geoff

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it seems to me this guy got screwed. to take his pass away for a comment on a site thats not their own is absurd.it would also be absurd if it was their own site. an episode like that is going to draw some kind of criticism whether they were at fault or not. the resorts media people and or lawyer should have advised them that some sort of backlash would come down and not over react. if they are at fault or not is to be seen, but lashing out like that over a comment seems like overkill and a bit paranoid. the white male comment is equally absurd.

I think you have this dead wrong.

Look at it from the point of view of the resort. Somebody has just been killed on your mountain. The senior staff have to deal with all the unpleasant required duties that go along with a death on your mountain. The family notification. The press since it's a visiting mountain school kid. It's a very upsetting and emotional time. I've heard stories from Skip King about when he had to do it at Sunday River. What a suck thing to have as part of your job duties. These guys aren't priests or funeral directors and don't have the repetitions to get used to dealing with this kind of thing. You then see some tool taking pot shots at you about the whole thing on your defacto resort message board. Into the penalty box with a game misconduct. I think they did exactly the right thing. I'll bet anybody who has had to do that particular unpleasant task at any ski resort in the world applauded them for doing it.
 

ZYDECORICH

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I think you have this dead wrong.

Look at it from the point of view of the resort. Somebody has just been killed on your mountain. The senior staff have to deal with all the unpleasant required duties that go along with a death on your mountain. The family notification. The press since it's a visiting mountain school kid. It's a very upsetting and emotional time. I've heard stories from Skip King about when he had to do it at Sunday River. What a suck thing to have as part of your job duties. These guys aren't priests or funeral directors and don't have the repetitions to get used to dealing with this kind of thing. You then see some tool taking pot shots at you about the whole thing on your defacto resort message board. Into the penalty box with a game misconduct. I think they did exactly the right thing. I'll bet anybody who has had to do that particular unpleasant task at any ski resort in the world applauded them for doing it.

i understand the horrible situation and the mountains staff having to deal with all the pain. it's something any of us would ever want to deal with. but it seems to me his quote "Nice work-in at the bottom of the article by marketing to assure potential Cu$tomers that the death was not related to conditions...." while not timely and sarcastic in tone, it's something people as a nature will question. was he the only one to query about conditions? did the family ask about conditions? did the local media do the same? i find it hard to believe he was the lone ranger on this one but perhaps the only one the mountain could do something about. his comment is not a place i would go but it just seems like he was a bit of a scapegoat.
.
 

mondeo

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I don't agree with your assessment of this situation .. I take my right to free speech expressed in a public forum to be protected by the first amendment .. otherwise I would never to be able to speak out against any injustice carried out by a private company
No one's right to speak out against a private company is being suppressed here. He didn't break a law, he won't go to jail, and won't be sued. Sugarloaf just exercised their right as a company to refuse service to an individual. I mean, if you stand up in a restaurant and start complaining about the food to everyone, do you expect to stay there for very long? If you get caught counting cards in blackjack at a casino, do you expect them to not throw you out? Nothing illegal here done by either party.

The post was made three days after the accident and two days after she died. The thread consisted of news of her death and people expressing their sympathies. What would you think if you were part of the girl's family? Something along the lines of, 'my daughter just died, and you're focusing on this?' Unfortunately, in today's sue happy environment, companies are forced to play CYA after every minor incident. It wasn't the most tactful way to do it, but as Geoff said, it's not like this guy has a lot of practice. Also, the way I read it, he was probably giving a factual recounting of the accident, it's just that that sound bite is the one the paper decided to use. The guy posted a tactless comment fairly immediately after a family's tradgedy in a thread that should have been left to news and condolences. You have a problem with Sugarloaf handled the acident, start a new thread, and show some respect to those who lost a family member.

Also, the only thing I could find about the guy getting his pass pulled was on here and TGR. No news story or anything. I'd think, that with the media being the sensation artists that they are, they'd produce a story about a guy getting hs pass revoked for criticizing the mountain on an internet forum. Sanitized to make sure you couldn't find fault with the guy, of course. I'm looking at this as possibly being hearsay.
 

skircher

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Mutual Respect

All,

Unlike the rest of the posts, I am happy to give you my name and position and take responibility for my comments.

I am "the skircher" and Stephen Kircher responsible for 6 of our Boyne Resort mountains including the recently blogged Sugarloaf. It makes sense to me and it is understandable from what was posted above why folks would be upset and believe this is a draconian action by some corporate "Nazi". However, this action was taken by the local team using the facts and circumstances of this specific individual and circumstance. Not specifically his post on a forum.

First the painful situation that started this was the loss of a young life at one of our resorts, a tragedy that I hope non of you have to face personally, as many of us in the business have to do. There is nothing more gut wrenching than looking a father or mother in the eyes and explaining to them what happened to their child.

The person that had this responsibility and direct contact with this family in this case and the one emotionally dealing with this girl’s death for the past several weeks was our Director of Marketing for Sugarloaf and Sunday River - Jim Costello. The post coupled with many interrelated histories and the results of a discussion after making contact with this young man prompted the temporary suspension to the resorts by Mr. Costello.

This action was not about "covering our tracks" or censorship it was about garnering respectful commentary on the sugarloaftoday/chat site (not run by us) regarding a death and respect toward the team that gives their careers to making Sugarloaf a great place to ski. As you might understand, there is a bit of history with that site that predates Boyne's involvement with Sugarloaf that also contributed to this decision by the local team.

I learned about the season pass refund just hours prior to posting my comments saying - we (Boyne Resorts) will look into this matter further. There have been several conversations with the young man since and the ice has melted considerable, my sense is that this young man will be enjoying Sugarloaf again before next year. Jim and he are scheduled to meet soon to discuss the various issues on site.

My comments about the sugarloaftoday/chat room regarding the request for the participants to give constructive feedback vs. hysterical staff bashing was meant to communicate that if they wish for the forum to continue to be an effective voice and a good source of feedback for the team it needs to act respectfully. Calling the man who dealt with this death - eyeball to eye all with the parents a "Coward" is not acceptable in my humble opinion to be on a chartroom site.

We (Boyne Resorts) enjoy constructive feedback and have been including this feedback to make adjustments in our operations for over 60 yrs. However, hysterical commentary, rumor mongering, misinformation, conspiracy theories and staff bashing by folks that don't have the decency to use their own name is not the feedback we use to run our business. It is counter productive and believe if someone is enjoying our facilities, they should have the common courtesy to give feedback respectfully and so it can be used to improve the place vs. creating a divisive atmosphere.

I personally, think this new medium offers huge benefits to customer dialogue and if you desire to take the time to see my numerous posts under the same name - you will understand that I respect these forums and those who participate in them. No matter what baggage they have seemed to carry with them into the conversations.

Thank you for at least reading this and hopefully in deference to that young girl we can all move on to enjoying this great outdoor recreational activity.

Respectfully,

SK - Stephen Kircher - President, Boyne Eastern Operations -MT, MI, TN, NH and ME
 

wa-loaf

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How did they trace his post, back to his real life identity?

He's a local and well known by the administration at Sugarloaf. He's been a vocal critic for a long time. This may have just been the act that pushed him over the edge.

That said, the board is self policing, he was immediately called on it and apologized not long after. It probably should have been over at that point. Marketing called him in and its sounds like words were said and then the pass was taken. Does the mountain have the legal right to do this? Yes. Was it probably a smart thing to do? Probably not. Now they have a possible PR problem.
 

Geoff

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How did they trace his post, back to his real life identity?

Don't forget how small the Sugarloaf community is. It's likely that a number of resort staff know many of the frequent posters on that message board.... particularly the ones who are throwing rocks all the time. If you've been at a resort as a season pass holder for many years, people know you. When you buy a season pass, you give them your name, your address, and probably your phone number. They have your photograph. From threads on the message board, they know who your friends are and they're bound to know some of them even if they don't know you.

I've never found reason to be anonymous on skiing message boards. It's social networking. I've made some pretty good friends over the years. We hang out on skiing message boards because skiing is a big chunk of our lives and most people think we're somewhat deranged to be chomping at the bit in October as they light up the snowmaking system and moping around in May when it all melts. If you adopt a critical and caustic internet personna, it always comes back to bite you and what you post to the internet lives forever. In this case, I have huge empathy for the poor employee at Sugarloaf that had to deal with this. I don't think any of us would have wanted to be making that trip to the hospital or the phone call to the family. You know that the poor guy who got stuck with that task read that post on the message board. Yanking the guy's season pass for 3 months was the appropriate response.
 

bobbutts

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I strongly disagree with the action taken by Boyne and it may affect my decision to remain their customer. Going after someone based on an (100% legal) opinion post on an forum is intolerable in my opinion.
 
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