Trail Poaching

KBubba on K-Zone posted this:

Bubba said:

I just got off the phone with Rich McGarry, VP & GM. The word coming out of Killington is that they will strictly enforce rules on rope ducking closed trails. While they're still drafting a set of guidelines on what to do under different circumstances, including punishments, the word coming out of Killington is "read your pass" and understand the rules.

What's driving this? Apparently someone was seriously hurt this past weekend skiing a closed trail and ski patrol had a difficult time reaching the person. The injury was a broken femur, the largest bone in the body, and patrollers were trashing skis to get there and get down. McGarry is calling this a "defining moment" for them in how they have to approach poaching as it's gotten completely out of hand in their eyes. They want to stop the practice now before something even more serious occurs.

That's all I know for now, though I'm sure there will be more to follow through their official media outlets like The Drift, etc.

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Interesting. It brings up the question - how many of you poach closed trails on a regular basis? I for one don't usually (not that I've never done it). My feeling is trails are closed for a reason so I usually stick to officially open trails. I know many people don't even think twice about ducking ropes though.

Here's another question - what is the difference of skiing a closed trail, or earning your turns by hiking a closed mountain and skiing down. Those trails are effectively "closed" too. I suppose the difference lies in how you got up the hill. By riding a lift, you've agreed to abide by the rules on the lift ticket or pass. An injury on an unpatrolled trail is an injury on an unpatrolled trail though. Thoughts?

I believe a "closed trail" defintion would state the groomed trail on the map is inaccessible. If a trail or line is not on the map and accessed by hiking or traversing, the rule shouldn't apply.

I duck ropes some times. I ussually ski wildcat though so when a trail is closed there is ussually a very good reason. Unless it is a powder day and they havent gotten around to opening it yet, then Ill duck. I really dont think wildcat cares, unless your doing it where the lift is too low.

At sugarloaf I almost got my ticket pulled, and I didnt even duck a rope, sure I went around it but thats there problem they should done a better job setting the ropes up :wink:

I don't usually do it but I do sometimes.

The trails closed for a reason

Ducking ropes is wrong. Period. The trail is closed for a reason (even if it's a stupid reason) and closed trails aren't patrolled so if you get hurt and can't get someone to notice you, you're in a world of sh!t. I've ducked a rope twice in my 25+ years skiing (Jerico at Jiminey and I forget the other one). Of course I don't really have a problem skiing in the woods even if said woods aren't marked glades which I guess is close to rope ducking but I believe if it's not roped off and skiable, then ski it at your own risk just don't go suing the mountain if you get banged up.

Sorry to hear about the injury,,,,,,my last name is McGarry, what are the chances of getting some tix!!!! ahahahahaah

I poach... But not all the time..

If there's a trail thats got snow on it and it hasn't been opened because average skiers/riders can't handle it or don't know how to turn lightly in shallow snow - I definately poach - always with someone else....

If a trail is closed by Patrol that was previosuly open - then i don't... Because - they close it for a reason...

I cut through the woods all the time on skis but not on my board

Greg said:

Interesting. It brings up the question - how many of you poach closed trails on a regular basis? I for one don't usually (not that I've never done it). My feeling is trails are closed for a reason so I usually stick to officially open trails. I know many people don't even think twice about ducking ropes though.

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this one is sure to provide a wide range or responses. i really feel for the resorts and ski areas on this topic. a lot of trails stay roped despite adequete coverage for many expert skiers. but the ski area needs to rope certain trails to keep joe skier from trying to chaulk up a black diamond off his to do list. also, many skiers don't care about base damage in thin cover and would gladly dive into a foot deep of pow without any base at all (i do this a lot myself and don't care about buying new skis frequently if it buys me phenomenal powder turns). but your average skier is going to complain and demand a refund or worse if they have their precious boards scratched up. a lot of areas are conservative due to their clientel. some areas such as magic and MRG leave it up to the skier to use their own judgement and won't rope trails unless they really just should not be skied by any body.

the interesting situation becomes the difference in ski areas. what constitutes safe conditions and dangerous conditions varies so much. thin cover means so many different things to different ski areas and different people.

my take is that i really would prefer not to duck a rope. i really respect the ski patrol and all the selfless time and hours they put in. they put up the rope whether for legit reasons or because the ski area is scared about litigation and liability of some folks that can't hack it and maybe a few who can. they are the one's that wrekc their skis when they don't want to if you screw up after ducking. that just plain sucks. my rules on ducking a rope are simple: be discrete, know the terrain and be absolutely sure you know what is covered and what is not, don't screw up, ski conservative, and be ready to provide your own rescue. that last part is the most important. it is essentially no different than going into the back country except you get a lift to the top.

Greg said:

Here's another question - what is the difference of skiing a closed trail, or earning your turns by hiking a closed mountain and skiing down. Those trails are effectively "closed" too. I suppose the difference lies in how you got up the hill. By riding a lift, you've agreed to abide by the rules on the lift ticket or pass. An injury on an unpatrolled trail is an injury on an unpatrolled trail though. Thoughts?

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as i said, roped trails should be treated as back country. different ski areas have different rules about hiking up, but i have yet to hike up an area that told me to leave. though i don't hike up open areas. interestingly enough, since i started earning turns away from open areas, my desire to duck has dropped considerably. i only do it on the very rare occasion that a ski area has completely blown the call and don't go alone.

actually a cool article on this in Powder this month. Tough question. Out West, where the consequences could be deadly, I have never ducked a rope. I will admit to having done so here though. I'm torn. I VERY much respect the ski patrol and don't want to do anything to make their jobs harder or more dangerous but, at least out East, I don't think the latter happens very often; we just don't have the objective dangers in-area out here.

OTOH, sometimes you just know that either: (1)That trail really should (or at least could) be open or (2) maybe it shouldn't be open to John Q Public but if you're capable of skiing a sufficiently narrow line, you could ski it safely (I don't say this from arrogance. I'm def'ly NOT a great skier. But I don't need to use all 50 yards of a super wide trail to get down it either so if there's some big rock or tree stump stickin' up but nowhere near my line...well, you know what I mean).

Some of my attitude probably comes from years of skiing sketchy stuff in the BC; sometimes I just can't believe what people think is "thin coverage" in-area. Sometimes you just have to go for it (Empire on a powder day?! C'mon SOD!)but be prepared to pay the consequences when you're caught. NO WHINING! Generally, I don't see it as much different than speeding while driving - it's generally not the ethical "thing" that some make it out to be.

And when you see "closed" trails all tracked up by the patrol or the lifties or whoever, well...... there's some hypocricy there, no? One of my patrol buds at the Face actually brought me poaching a few times. Talk about a get-out-of-jail-free card! Whooo-hoo!

I have never poached closed/roped off trail. I generally stay on the trails unless the areas have boundary-to-boundary policies (MRG, Sugarbush, Jay), but would be much more likely to head into the woods off an open trail than go onto a roped off trail... Most areas with the boundary-to-boundary policies limit it to entering (and exiting, I think, though that's probably harder to control for the skier) from open trails.

well this weekend i saw more skiers poaching in two days than in my 10 years of skiing! i dont do it because i dont want to blow my seasons pass, and dont want to get on a resort's bad side.

I poached a trail at Bretton Woods last Friday. I spoke to this guy on a lift who poached it previously in the day and he gave me the conditions. (Powder Powder Powder!) It seems that they never opened the trail because they wanted to pack it down for Saturday. My last run of the day, my buddy and I ducked the rope and had the best run of the season so far. I respect patrol as well and typically won't duck .... but this was too good to pass up.

Greg said:

Here's another question - what is the difference of skiing a closed trail, or earning your turns by hiking a closed mountain and skiing down. Those trails are effectively "closed" too. I suppose the difference lies in how you got up the hill. By riding a lift, you've agreed to abide by the rules on the lift ticket or pass. An injury on an unpatrolled trail is an injury on an unpatrolled trail though. Thoughts?

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I feel real weird about ducking ropes. Even when it should be totally open and all my freinds are doing it. I don't think I really ever ducked a rope. At least not on purpose.

But on the other hand, I have no problem hiking up and boarding down a closed trail. I think you have it explained right Greg. When I use a lift, I entered into a social contract with the employees and ski patrol of the mountain that I'm not going to bust their stones. Their lifts, their show. And if I get caught someone is going to have to yell at me. Myself, I hate having to yell at people. So do onto others, respect to the employees is why I suppose is why I never duck a rope. (I will "extend" a glade line into an unopen field, but I swear that's a total accident)

If I hike up I feel completely uninhibited about ducking a rope. Because I think I earned some respect. And because I hiked the employees, if any, feel no obligation to chew me out. They see me and waive. I waive back. Respect.

I think that K-mart's concern is both an insurance and liability issue. Their insurer, and other ski area insurers, most likely require that it is made clear that when the ski area is in operation skiers are to remain in maintained areas and not go onto closed or restricted areas. I would not be surprised if the dingo who ducked the rope will attempt to sue the mountain in some way...at least he is OK, but the rope is pulled for a reason.

Burke and other areas close trails on the perimeter early sometimes and when folks want 'one last run' and duck the rope at 3:35pm after it had closed at 3:15, they put themselves and others at risk. Last season this very scenario happened at Burke and someone lost their life. Is the ski area liable?

So I think that when the rope is pulled, we need to honor it. The ski areas are only trying to protect their customers and their staff. They owe a duty to protect us and we owe them a duty to follow the rules. If folks dodge ropes and get hurt, then the argument could be made that there is no reason for ropes at all and insurance companies would stop insuring mountains or double or triple the premiums. Not how we want things to go...

ducking into the woods at 3pm is just stupid rope or not.

If a trail is clearly marked closed and somebody ducks and gets hurt, I can't imagine any lawsuit the gomer was imprudent enough to bring wouldn't be dismissed on a motion for summary judgment. I'm not gonna bother goin' on Lexis or westlaw to look for a case but I've got a hunch. Anybody (w/access to those services and more time and interest than me) wanna take a stab at it?

IMO, if someone ducks ropes and gets hurt the ski area has no liability. That's probably not the law (my neice go sued when some kids broke into her climbing gym, one fell and got hurt, parents sued, insurance settled out of court -- makes no sense to me), but certainly my opinion. Curious, do those of you who duck ropes and/or ski back country ever go alone? Seems like something not that serious, like a broken leg, could be pretty disasterous if you're alone in back country.

freeheelwilly said:

If a trail is clearly marked closed and somebody ducks and gets hurt, I can't imagine any lawsuit the gomer was imprudent enough to bring wouldn't be dismissed on a motion for summary judgment. I'm not gonna bother goin' on Lexis or westlaw to look for a case but I've got a hunch. Anybody (w/access to those services and more time and interest than me) wanna take a stab at it?

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Don't have time to search...but you're absolutely right...summary judgment written all over it if not directed verdict or all out dismissal.

HOWEVER you and I know that the defendant ski area and/or their insurer still has to foot the bill for defense to get to that point while Sammy Skier pays nothing for his suit because most plaintiff's attorneys are not paid unless they win. So one would think that an attorney would not take the case, but some think they have nothing to lose and all to gain.

I just think that folks should avoid roped off areas.

Skiing in the offseason is a different animal...especially when you consider that most ski areas are on public land and accessibility can't always be restricted.

Locally....when a trail is roped and you duck it...you might come over a blind crest and find yourself a BR400 pancake. Not cool. In the past...the local spot has roped anything with any kind of hazzard. NOW..if a trail is marginal for some reason they rope and leave an entrance with sign stating experts only and other signs stating the hazzards to watch for like bare patches...thin cover...open water...etc. I think that's the best way to go about it as then when a trail is straight roped you know there's a real good reason not to go down it (Like a BR400 doing it's thing).