Crown Point Bridge CLOSED

deadheadskier · Jan 1, 2010

Geoff said:
Vermont opted to spend big on social services rather than maintain their infrastructure. Their public policy doesn't seem to consider the economic impact of their tax policy or their allocation of those tax dollars. The Vermont side of the Connecticut River valley is an economic wasteland as businesses opted to move over the river to a more business-friendly New Hampshire. If you sit in Chittenden County where all the people live with the Canadian border to the north and a big long lake to the west, you probably don't care that the Crown Point Bridge doesn't exist or that places like White River Junction and Bellows Falls have become economic wastelands.

agree for the most part

you see the same thing in Seabrook, NH being quite prosperous and Salisbury, MA being a wasteland.

Bellowsfalls? been economically depressed as long as I recall since I entered High School 5 miles down the road in 1990. While a nice community, Walpole across the river isn't exactly a thriving economy.

Downstream, Brattleboro is actually a far more diverse economy than Keene across the way; this despite Keene having the advantage of being home to a decent sized College. BF has the highway benefit.

White River is glaring though. Completely depressed despite being a few 9 irons from the Hanover/Lebanon upper valley area that might be the most thriving Northern New England regional economy save for Chittenden County.

There's more to it than just politics / business climate, but you have a valid point

Geoff · Jan 2, 2010

deadheadskier said:
agree for the most part

you see the same thing in Seabrook, NH being quite prosperous and Salisbury, MA being a wasteland.

Bellowsfalls? been economically depressed as long as I recall since I entered High School 5 miles down the road in 1990. While a nice community, Walpole across the river isn't exactly a thriving economy.

Downstream, Brattleboro is actually a far more diverse economy than Keene across the way; this despite Keene having the advantage of being home to a decent sized College. BF has the highway benefit.

White River is glaring though. Completely depressed despite being a few 9 irons from the Hanover/Lebanon upper valley area that might be the most thriving Northern New England regional economy save for Chittenden County.

There's more to it than just politics / business climate, but you have a valid point

Try going shopping in Brattleboro. Anything big ticket or big box is over the river. You can find clothing (Sam's) since that's not taxed. You can find restaurants and little shops that cater to the drive-by tourist business. Good luck finding a television or a washing machine. I'd love to hear a real example of Brattleboro's "diverse economy". I've never seen any evidence of anything but low paying service jobs. I'll bet the Brattleboro retreat is the biggest employer. Staff positions in a nut house aren't typically high paying.

ski_resort_observer · Jan 2, 2010

wa-loaf said:
. I'm sure whatever replaces it will just be a bland road over the lake.

I wouldn't be so sure about that...try checking the internet and you will easily find the four designs they were considering and the one they have decidied to go with. Personally I think a bland road over the lake would be the cheapest and the quickest to be constructed.

Originally Posted by Geoff
Vermont opted to spend big on social services rather than maintain their infrastructure. Their public policy doesn't seem to consider the economic impact of their tax policy or their allocation of those tax dollars. The Vermont side of the Connecticut River valley is an economic wasteland as businesses opted to move over the river to a more business-friendly New Hampshire. If you sit in Chittenden County where all the people live with the Canadian border to the north and a big long lake to the west, you probably don't care that the Crown Point Bridge doesn't exist or that places like White River Junction and Bellows Falls have become economic wastelands.

Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.

riverc0il · Jan 2, 2010

ski_resort_observer said:
Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.

Not total BS. As I recall, VT has a big box store law limiting the amount of square footage a retailer can operate. Suffice to say, the business climate in NH is much better than its neighbors.

This is not unique to NH/VT... look at all of NHs primary entrances and exits. They all have major shopping and business districts next to towns in other states that do not. Methuen, MA managed to rebound with The Loop but they lost the mall competition to NH. Nashua, Portsmouth, North Conway, etc. It is not just a NH/VT thing.

Though SRO does have a great point that the Walmarts have been driven across the river by the local communities. I got into StJ just after things had settled down. The story I got was that StJ thought a Walmart would kill downtown. It turned out that not having a Walmart killed downtown.

Geoff · Jan 2, 2010

ski_resort_observer said:
Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.

So you're saying the state of Vermont has nothing to do with Act 250? It's not "completely local". Out of towners routinely use the law to halt projects. Anybody can stop anything for months through Act 250 provisions. Or the sky-high health insurance costs in the state? Or the sky-high workmans comp in the state? Or the highest in the region personal and corporate income taxes? Or the sky-high Act 68 school tax on commercial real estate? I've never seen anywhere so anti-business. The best jobs in the state are at IBM and their Essex Junction plant has been on the market for years and has seen zero capital investment for years. The only way the state can get companies to come in is to offer them waivers on the sky-high business costs. It's not exactly a level playing field since every other business in the state gets screwed over by them.

deadheadskier · Jan 2, 2010

Geoff said:
Try going shopping in Brattleboro. Anything big ticket or big box is over the river. You can find clothing (Sam's) since that's not taxed. You can find restaurants and little shops that cater to the drive-by tourist business. Good luck finding a television or a washing machine. I'd love to hear a real example of Brattleboro's "diverse economy". I've never seen any evidence of anything but low paying service jobs. I'll bet the Brattleboro retreat is the biggest employer. Staff positions in a nut house aren't typically high paying.

If I had to guess, CNS Wholesale is probably the largest employer in Brattleboro. If where you buy a TV is your barometer for economic prosperity, then perhaps Keene is better. If you want to judge by dining, arts, general 'liveliness' of the downtown, Brattleboro is hands down a more thriving community than Keene.

deadheadskier · Jan 2, 2010

ski_resort_observer said:
Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.

This is correct. One of those towns being Bennington. The town of Bennington put in a local ordinance capping retail floor space at 75K square feet. Most new Walmarts exceed 100K. The ordinance was put in place with the express purpose of preventing a proposed Walmart. Same thing happened in St. Albans prior to there.

I think Act 250 does serve a good purpose in reviewing projects and letting the community have a say in how things change.

I had to leave Vermont because I could not make the kind of living I wanted to; even in Burlington VT. It is a tough business climate. However, I do respect that the people of the state are willing to make great economic sacrifices in order to preserve their way of life. I wish NH had at least a partially similar mindset. The biggest example of this was returning to North Conway 5 years ago for the first time in 20 years. I used to go vacationing there all the time as a kid. I remember it had a lot of charm and being sort of the Stowe of New Hampshire. Now it looks like New Jersey

Geoff · Jan 3, 2010

deadheadskier said:
The biggest example of this was returning to North Conway 5 years ago for the first time in 20 years. I used to go vacationing there all the time as a kid. I remember it had a lot of charm and being sort of the Stowe of New Hampshire. Now it looks like New Jersey

Have you been to South Burlington recently?

noski · Jan 14, 2010

Crown Point Bridge Replacement Design

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/86892

Replacement bridge design has been announced.

deadheadskier · Jan 14, 2010

Geoff said:
Have you been to South Burlington recently?

yes, it looks like Jersey.

Thankfully not all of the state is that way. I enjoy living in New Hampshire, but there's a dozen South Burlington like areas in this state at least. I really don't care for the homoginization of America in the name of economic progress.

Glenn · Jan 14, 2010

I hope VT can work things out. The state spends more money than it takes in, they don't have a huge population (tax base), and jobs keep leaving the state.

marcski · Jan 14, 2010

Geoff said:
Try going shopping in Brattleboro. Anything big ticket or big box is over the river. You can find clothing (Sam's) since that's not taxed. You can find restaurants and little shops that cater to the drive-by tourist business. Good luck finding a television or a washing machine. I'd love to hear a real example of Brattleboro's "diverse economy". I've never seen any evidence of anything but low paying service jobs. I'll bet the Brattleboro retreat is the biggest employer. Staff positions in a nut house aren't typically high paying.

deadheadskier said:
If I had to guess, CNS Wholesale is probably the largest employer in Brattleboro. If where you buy a TV is your barometer for economic prosperity, then perhaps Keene is better. If you want to judge by dining, arts, general 'liveliness' of the downtown, Brattleboro is hands down a more thriving community than Keene.

I'd say the Hospital might be the biggest employer. Could be the City too, esp. if you include the school teachers.

Geoff · Jan 14, 2010

marcski said:
I'd say the Hospital might be the biggest employer. Could be the City too, esp. if you include the school teachers.

It might be the nut house... err.. Brattleboro Retreat.

ComeBackMudPuddles · Jan 20, 2010

i don't think having big box stores and washing machines is a sign of a vibrant economy while having a tourist-based economy results in an inferior wasteland (rough summary of some of the posts on the thread).

walmart jobs and strip malls is not a way to build for the future, but it does make things more convenient and less expensive. in that way, NH is sort of jersey north.

anyway, chronic under-investment in infrastructure is a nation-wide problem and is not a sympton of vermont's social policies (and, as mentioned by someone, the friggin' bridge wasn't even vermont's responsibility!!! lol.).

twinplanx · Jan 18, 2011

bump for question: Is said bridge back in action?

from_the_NEK · Jan 18, 2011

twinplanx said:
bump for question: Is said bridge back in action?

Scheduled to open to traffic in October 2011.

https://www.nysdot.gov/lakechamplainbridge/bridgecam

nelsapbm · Jan 18, 2011

As NEK mentioned....this fall (hopefully). There is a free 24/7 ferry running in its place.

Crown Point Bridge CLOSED

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