Should Vermont secede from the Union?

ctenidae · Jan 15, 2010

Geoff said:
In a state of 610,000 people, if 5,000 high paid IBM jobs vaporize, the state has no money to fund UVM or the university hospital. Maybe Arkansas is a bad example. More like Detroit.

I had no idea Vermont had so few people. Arkansas has a little over 2.6 million, at least. And a much better diversified economic base. Most of which is not, admittedly, related to a strong education system. Of course, Arkansas could probably be mostly self-sufficient if it were to secede. Again.

Geoff · Jan 16, 2010

ctenidae said:
I had no idea Vermont had so few people. Arkansas has a little over 2.6 million, at least. And a much better diversified economic base. Most of which is not, admittedly, related to a strong education system. Of course, Arkansas could probably be mostly self-sufficient if it were to secede. Again.

Yep. IBM is the 800 pound gorilla of the Vermont economy. With 600K people, the loss of 5000 high tech jobs is an epic disaster. The state couldn't make it on dairy and tourism with the current level of social services. If IBM goes away, all the state-supported infrastructure has to shrink. UVM. Healthcare. Support for public schools funded by Act 68. There would be huge unemployment in Chittenden County. Housing price collapse. Business failures. It's too small to make much of an impression nationally since this has happened to other small cities all over the country when the dominant employer shuts the doors and pushes the business to Asia. When the Quebec Hydro contract expires soon, that could be the catalyst that pushes IBM out if electricity prices jump the way I think they are going to jump. If I were in a leadership position in Vermont, I'd be crapping in my pants.

Geoff · Jan 16, 2010

deadheadskier said:
Interesting

I wonder how IDX/GE Healthcare ranks in comparison in terms of it's economic impact to the state.

They employ around 600 people. About a tenth of the IBM impact. With the other stuff GE does around the state, I would guess GE is #2 of the employers who actually produce something and decent wages. Ben & Jerry's and Green Mountain Coffee employ people but they don't pay well. All the state & local-funded jobs end up contracting if the tax base contracts so you really can't count those.

I think the insurance industry is also a significant employer.

deadheadskier · Jan 16, 2010

Indeed with Vermont National Life probably being the largest.

One number I did find you were off on is state funding of Universities....well UVM specifically, not sure about the State Colleges. Only 10% of UVM is funded by the state.

I have a 'that doesn't make sense' meter as well.

. As an alum (I know you are as well) I seemed to have recalled tuition being rather high for residents compared to other states and REALLY high for out of state residents..

63% of UVM's operating budget is funded by tuition, 10% the State and the rest from endowment, annual giving etc.

Geoff · Jan 16, 2010

deadheadskier said:
Indeed with Vermont National Life probably being the largest.

One number I did find you were off on is state funding of Universities....well UVM specifically, not sure about the State Colleges. Only 10% of UVM is funded by the state.

I have a 'that doesn't make sense' meter as well. . As an alum (I know you are as well) I seemed to have recalled tuition being rather high for residents compared to other states and REALLY high for out of state residents..

63% of UVM's operating budget is funded by tuition, 10% the State and the rest from endowment, annual giving etc.

The way UVM works, all in-state students get 2/3 of their tuition subsidized by the state. A substantial slice of the in-state students pick up a further subsidy that can be all of the tuition and a big slice of the fees and room & board. UVM's endowment fund sucks. I've given a fair amount of money to the school and I get their financials. You'd never confuse it with Harvard.

The funding split at UVM is actually closer to 50%/50%.

deadheadskier · Jan 16, 2010

The University adopted a $251 million budget for the 2007-08 academic year[9] or $21,643 per enrollee. In 2007, tuition revenue provided 63 percent of the general fund budget; state funds provided around 10 percent; endowment, annual giving, income/expense activities and other sources made up 20 percent of the university's annual budget. UVM is one of few public schools that does not rely or depend heavily on public funding, thus the University operates in a financially similar manner to a private school. This gives UVM a strategic financial advantage over other public schools, particularly in times of economic plight.[10]

ski_resort_observer · Jan 16, 2010

Give me a frigging break.....a few nutjobs are running for office.....it's bigger news in here than in Vermont. Same as the people a few years in Killington who wanted to secede to NH.

Most of you come to Vermont on weekends to ski, a few have second homes. In reading the posts most do not know crap about Vermont. Forbes Magazine again ranked Vermont #1 in being the healthiest state in the nation. On which state's residents are the happiest, Vermont is # 18, the bottom 3 are Mass, Ct and NY, go figure.

We don't make alot of money but we don't care as we would much rather live in Vermont than the "rats in the maze" states most of you hail from.

IBM has nothing to do with the funding of UVM or Fletcher Allen. If funded by all the out of state students(about 60%) who pay around $40,000 per year to attend and the Alumni Fund, just like all the other expensive colleges. Like Detroit? What planet do you live on? How is Vermont anything like Detroit?

Bratt is a great small city, the hospital and the Bratt Retreat, the "nuthouse" as Geoff referred to it as, very impressive, Geoff...are the biggest employers in Bratt, both have around 400 staff. Who gives a rats ass about the low number of big box stores. Is that how some of you really judge a community. Unreal.

Everything is not perfect, no state is. Property taxes are very high and Act 250 definately hurts the state as far as bringing in new business. The state legislature is working on that.

It's awesome that people, including many on AZ, drive many hours to ski here. I, for one, really appreciate that and try to make it the best place possible. Sure there are Vermonters who don't. Please don't paint everyone in Vermont with the same brush if you come across one of those. They totally suck too, IMHO

Rant over! Carry on with the continued crapola.

deadheadskier · Jan 16, 2010

ski_resort_observer said:
We don't make alot of money but we don't care as we would much rather live in Vermont than the "rats in the maze" states most of you hail from.

no need for that.......kinda of derogatory towards others homes and not at all hospitable coming from someone who works in tourism.

Not sure if your overall seething comments are directed at me SRO. For the record, I went to High School and College in Vermont, I've spent 5 odd years of my adult life living and working there, my family had a home there for 15 years; I've spent more time in that state than any other. Vermont is what I consider home and where I feel that I'm from. I think I'm plenty qualified to comment on it.

Geoff · Jan 16, 2010

deadheadskier said:
no need for that.......kinda of derogatory towards others homes and not at all hospitable coming from someone who works in tourism.

Yeah, but it's what I've come to expect.

mondeo · Jan 17, 2010

ski_resort_observer said:
Give me a frigging break.....a few nutjobs are running for office.....it's bigger news in here than in Vermont. Same as the people a few years in Killington who wanted to secede to NH.

Most of you come to Vermont on weekends to ski, a few have second homes. In reading the posts most do not know crap about Vermont. Forbes Magazine again ranked Vermont #1 in being the healthiest state in the nation. On which state's residents are the happiest, Vermont is # 18, the bottom 3 are Mass, Ct and NY, go figure.

We don't make alot of money but we don't care as we would much rather live in Vermont than the "rats in the maze" states most of you hail from.

IBM has nothing to do with the funding of UVM or Fletcher Allen. If funded by all the out of state students(about 60%) who pay around $40,000 per year to attend and the Alumni Fund, just like all the other expensive colleges. Like Detroit? What planet do you live on? How is Vermont anything like Detroit?

Bratt is a great small city, the hospital and the Bratt Retreat, the "nuthouse" as Geoff referred to it as, very impressive, Geoff...are the biggest employers in Bratt, both have around 400 staff. Who gives a rats ass about the low number of big box stores. Is that how some of you really judge a community. Unreal.

Everything is not perfect, no state is. Property taxes are very high and Act 250 definately hurts the state as far as bringing in new business. The state legislature is working on that.

It's awesome that people, including many on AZ, drive many hours to ski here. I, for one, really appreciate that and try to make it the best place possible. Sure there are Vermonters who don't. Please don't paint everyone in Vermont with the same brush if you come across one of those. They totally suck too, IMHO

Rant over! Carry on with the continued crapola.

Nobody took the original story seriously. As far as us rats in the maze, Geoff lives in VT, DHS lives in NH and as he mentioned spent a bit of time living in VT. No one else is really debating the crappiness of VT gov't. What's your point?

ComeBackMudPuddles · Jan 18, 2010

it's really a no-brainer, imho.

and the worries about UVM? i don't see it. with less course offerings getting in the way, all the UVM hippies will have more time to smoke dope and listen to the dead....thereby leading to a huge spike in applicants regardless of the falling "academics".

anyway, the Republic of Vermont's economy will be just fine. think of all the shows vermont will get to put on and keep all the money for itself, instead of sharing with 49 other states...

Vermonter Idol
Vermont's Got Talent
Dancing With Vermonters
The Real Housewives of Mad River Valley
Farmer Wants A Wife (Vermont Edition)
Who Wants To Marry Highway Star?
The Littlest Vermonter (Highway Star Edition)
My Big Fat Obnoxious Neighbor, New Hampshire
Vermonter And The Geek
The Geek And The Vermonter
Hogan Knows Vermont
I'm A Celebrity....Get Me Out Of Rutland!

the hilarious possibilities really are endless! america will not be missed.

Glenn · Jan 19, 2010

ski_resort_observer said:
Give me a frigging break.....a few nutjobs are running for office.....it's bigger news in here than in Vermont. Same as the people a few years in Killington who wanted to secede to NH.

Most of you come to Vermont on weekends to ski, a few have second homes. In reading the posts most do not know crap about Vermont. Forbes Magazine again ranked Vermont #1 in being the healthiest state in the nation. On which state's residents are the happiest, Vermont is # 18, the bottom 3 are Mass, Ct and NY, go figure.

We don't make alot of money but we don't care as we would much rather live in Vermont than the "rats in the maze" states most of you hail from.

IBM has nothing to do with the funding of UVM or Fletcher Allen. If funded by all the out of state students(about 60%) who pay around $40,000 per year to attend and the Alumni Fund, just like all the other expensive colleges. Like Detroit? What planet do you live on? How is Vermont anything like Detroit?

Bratt is a great small city, the hospital and the Bratt Retreat, the "nuthouse" as Geoff referred to it as, very impressive, Geoff...are the biggest employers in Bratt, both have around 400 staff. Who gives a rats ass about the low number of big box stores. Is that how some of you really judge a community. Unreal.

Everything is not perfect, no state is. Property taxes are very high and Act 250 definately hurts the state as far as bringing in new business. The state legislature is working on that.

It's awesome that people, including many on AZ, drive many hours to ski here. I, for one, really appreciate that and try to make it the best place possible. Sure there are Vermonters who don't. Please don't paint everyone in Vermont with the same brush if you come across one of those. They totally suck too, IMHO

Rant over! Carry on with the continued crapola.

For someone who lives in the 18th "Happiest" state...that wasn't a very happy post. :lol:

I say this in jest.

Should Vermont secede from the Union?

ctenidae

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Geoff

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Geoff

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deadheadskier

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Geoff

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deadheadskier

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ski_resort_observer

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deadheadskier

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Geoff

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mondeo

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ComeBackMudPuddles

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Glenn

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