Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

mondeo · Aug 21, 2010

Newpylong said:
Where Sunday River lacks in height they almost make up for in geography. Even if K does use the stairs they wouldn't be a shoe-in.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/USME0273?climoMonth=10
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/05751?climoMonth=10

Newry is at 700 ft elevation, Killington at 1300 ft. T2 mid-station at 2000ft, NRT bottom at 3400 feet, so subtract 5 degrees from Newry's averages and 7 from Killington, Killington has a 5 degree advantage at the base of necessary snowmaking. With cold snaps, 5 degrees may not matter. But if it's marginal, that's a big edge in Killington's favor. Going down to the gondola, they only have a 1.5 degree advantage, negated by the Eastern exposure of lower bunny buster.

sLoPeS · Aug 21, 2010

mondeo said:
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/USME0273?climoMonth=10
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/05751?climoMonth=10

Newry is at 700 ft elevation, Killington at 1300 ft. T2 mid-station at 2000ft, NRT bottom at 3400 feet, so subtract 5 degrees from Newry's averages and 7 from Killington, Killington has a 5 degree advantage at the base of necessary snowmaking. With cold snaps, 5 degrees may not matter. But if it's marginal, that's a big edge in Killington's favor. Going down to the gondola, they only have a 1.5 degree advantage, negated by the Eastern exposure of lower bunny buster.

Killington at 1300'? maybe the base of skyship....KBL = 2500'

mondeo · Aug 21, 2010

sLoPeS said:
Killington at 1300'? maybe the base of skyship....KBL = 2500'

Town of Killington, where the average temperature data is for (if it's not actually Rutland.)

Newpylong · Aug 21, 2010

Who cares about elevation if they aren't willing to take advantage of it though?

mondeo · Aug 21, 2010

Newpylong said:
Who cares about elevation if they aren't willing to take advantage of it though?

mondeo said:
... with the walkway Sunday River needs a weird weather pattern to have even a shot at being able to open before Killington can.

Of course, if Killington builds it and then doesn't use it, then all hell will break loose.

Right now, SR has a slight edge in the early season set-up. But Killington's actually done a fairly decent job the last couple years opening as soon as they can. They might've been able to match SR last year, they had NRT covered, just not lower Bunny (also, they may have still been installing the fan gun at the mixing bowl and not wanting skiers going past heavy machinery.) Year before, they were open a day later. As much as people give them crap about late season, early season they've done a fairly good job.

I'm guessing the walkway is a feeler for the market for what a 2 week monopoly gets them and the appetite for downloading off the gondola. If successful, it might push up the timetable for redoing the peak lodge, putting some sort of early season lift, going early on NRT and faster high altitude expansion than they'd bother with in the past. I mean, what would a walkway cost them? $10K, max? Pays off with 200 lift tickets beyond operations break even, probably saves $10K in snowmaking waste first year anyways when they don't have to blow lower Bunny until they're sure it can stay for a bit.

Geoff · Aug 21, 2010

mondeo said:
I'm guessing the walkway is a feeler for the market for what a 2 week monopoly gets them and the appetite for downloading off the gondola. If successful, it might push up the timetable for redoing the peak lodge, putting some sort of early season lift, going early on NRT and faster high altitude expansion than they'd bother with in the past. I mean, what would a walkway cost them? $10K, max? Pays off with 200 lift tickets beyond operations break even, probably saves $10K in snowmaking waste first year anyways when they don't have to blow lower Bunny until they're sure it can stay for a bit.

What really matters is the number of season pass sales they have lost by contracting their season. Killington's midwinter product sucks. If you take away the spring and fall skiing, the value proposition is lousy compared to points farther north.

I imagine their season pass sales have been a total disaster since they took ownership. They have to give people a reason to come back.

deadheadskier · Aug 21, 2010

Geoff said:
What really matters is the number of season pass sales they have lost by contracting their season. Killington's midwinter product sucks. If you take away the spring and fall skiing, the value proposition is lousy compared to points farther north.

I imagine their season pass sales have been a total disaster since they took ownership. They have to give people a reason to come back.

I could be way off here, but I thought last year's mid-winter product was supposedly quite good. This is me not skiing there, just that my perceived general feedback in these forums was that it was better than the prior years of Powd'r ownership.

true?

mondeo · Aug 21, 2010

deadheadskier said:
I could be way off here, but I thought last year's mid-winter product was supposedly quite good. This is me not skiing there, just that my perceived general feedback in these forums was that it was better than the prior years of Powd'r ownership.

true?

I thought it was great given the lack of natural available.

Also, a good chunk of Killington's value proposition is its location. I'll drive 2.5 hours every weekend to Killington, 3.5 to Sugarbush isn't worth it over what Killington offers and it's a significantly better midwinter product than closer mountains.

Geoff · Aug 21, 2010

deadheadskier said:
I could be way off here, but I thought last year's mid-winter product was supposedly quite good. This is me not skiing there, just that my perceived general feedback in these forums was that it was better than the prior years of Powd'r ownership.

true?

Killington was bogus last year. Stowe and Jay Peak had a bunch of orographic lift events that missed Killington completely. Other than the 6 foot storm which was not exactly champagne powder, Killington had pretty much zilch for natural snow from New Years through the end of the year. If your idea of great skiing is McSludge (tm) out of low E guns that has been groomed to death, Killington was your place. That's the Sunday River product I loathe. If you wanted a nice soft natural snow surface with good tree skiing, Killington didn't have much of that last winter.

Killington gets far too much traffic to have a consistent soft natural snow surface. Sure, it blows away Okemo and points south but Sugarbush, Mad River, Stowe, and Jay are all far superior to anything Killington can offer. Killington is all about spring skiing. When they close in April and contract the mountain dramatically after the first weekend in April, points farther north with the same or longer spring season have the same value proposition.

Tin Woodsman · Aug 21, 2010

mondeo said:
Also, a good chunk of Killington's value proposition is its location. I'll drive 2.5 hours every weekend to Killington, 3.5 to Sugarbush isn't worth it over what Killington offers and it's a significantly better midwinter product than closer mountains.

Yes - go to Killington. Sugarbush sucks. Awful vibe. Trails way too empty. Too few cat tracks intersecting trails. No sidecountry. Lousy old base facilities. Please do stay away.

mondeo · Aug 21, 2010

Tin Woodsman said:
Yes - go to Killington. Sugarbush sucks. Awful vibe. Trails way too empty. Too few cat tracks intersecting trails. No sidecountry. Lousy old base facilities. Please do stay away.

I never said Killington had better skiing than Sugarbush. I said it was an hour closer, and it's still good enough to hold my attention for a full season.

Nice reading comprehension.

deadheadskier · Aug 21, 2010

mondeo said:
I never said Killington had better skiing than Sugarbush. I said it was an hour closer, and it's still good enough to hold my attention for a full season.

I can appreciate this statement 100%.

I ski at Ragged because of the convenience. Convenience matters very much in the modern world. Ragged is only 35 minutes closer to me than Cannon, 45 closer than Wildcat. Both areas I vastly prefer. The time savings for me are worth it despite the inferior product.

If I were a 'weekend' skier, the K product would be good enough for me over northern product in order to shave an hour off the commute time both legs of the trip.

jerryg · Aug 22, 2010

I think something that has been lost here is that Killington hasn't built this raised walkway and I haven't heard them make public mention of it aside from the permit filing. Getting a permit really just means that they have between now and 2014 to build this, but that doesn't mean they will.

Ha, Bob, I did downgrade to a silver pass last year for the first time because I wasn't using the pass during vacation weeks. Same goes for this year. Besides, Julie's folks get us buddy tickets on blackout days, but there really aren't many blackout days that aren't school vacations. :snow:

mondeo · Aug 22, 2010

jerryg said:
I think something that has been lost here is that Killington hasn't built this raised walkway and I haven't heard them make public mention of it aside from the permit filing. Getting a permit really just means that they have between now and 2014 to build this, but that doesn't mean they will.

http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/mountain-improvements-continue

In addition, we are undergoing the permitting process for a number of other projects. More information on those projects in future Killington Insiders

It's not like a walkway takes that long to build, for something like this I don't see why they'd apply for a permit without planning on doing it fairly quickly. It's not like they need to order long lead time materials that they'd want to have approval before purchasing, or anything like that.

Edd · Aug 22, 2010

jerryg said:
Ha, Bob, I did downgrade to a silver pass last year for the first time because I wasn't using the pass during vacation weeks. Same goes for this year. Besides, Julie's folks get us buddy tickets on blackout days, but there really aren't many blackout days that aren't school vacations.

I'm downgrading to a bronze this year because I realized I rarely ski the River on Sundays and never Saturdays.

frankm938 · Aug 22, 2010

Geoff said:
Killington was bogus last year. Stowe and Jay Peak had a bunch of orographic lift events that missed Killington completely. Other than the 6 foot storm which was not exactly champagne powder, Killington had pretty much zilch for natural snow from New Years through the end of the year. If your idea of great skiing is McSludge (tm) out of low E guns that has been groomed to death, Killington was your place. That's the Sunday River product I loathe. If you wanted a nice soft natural snow surface with good tree skiing, Killington didn't have much of that last winter.

Killington gets far too much traffic to have a consistent soft natural snow surface. Sure, it blows away Okemo and points south but Sugarbush, Mad River, Stowe, and Jay are all far superior to anything Killington can offer. Killington is all about spring skiing. When they close in April and contract the mountain dramatically after the first weekend in April, points farther north with the same or longer spring season have the same value proposition.

sounds like you will be joining highway star at a different mtn next season? i know i would go somewhere else if i felt there were better options.

frankm938 · Aug 22, 2010

mondeo said:
I never said Killington had better skiing than Sugarbush. I said it was an hour closer, and it's still good enough to hold my attention for a full season.

Nice reading comprehension.

god forbid anyone on AZ dare to like killington better than sugarbush!!

thetrailboss · Aug 22, 2010

frankm938 said:
god forbid anyone on AZ dare to like killington better than sugarbush!!

There aren't too many that do.

The only thing I can see that Killington has on SB is the apres ski scene. Yes it is larger, but....

jerryg · Aug 22, 2010

mondeo said:
http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/mountain-improvements-continue
[/I]
It's not like a walkway takes that long to build, for something like this I don't see why they'd apply for a permit without planning on doing it fairly quickly. It's not like they need to order long lead time materials that they'd want to have approval before purchasing, or anything like that.

It's good to see the improvements being made and believe me, I think that it would be great if Killington were to get this project moving right away, but the Killington or eastern lore and that of the one being operated by Powdr are two different things and two different philosophies. The project is not as minor as you would think. I see it for next season, but it may be too late for this year. If they do it for this season - great! The more resorts willing to push for early openings, the better. Perhaps it'll push Boyne to utilize the set-up the SL has, which would be perfect for early season, skiing, but not likely.

sLoPeS · Aug 22, 2010

jerryg said:
The project is not as minor as you would think. I see it for next season, but it may be too late for this year.

I'll be walking up those stairs in a couple months....will you?

Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

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