Why are lessons so expensive?

jaywbigred · Jan 2, 2011

Here is a question I've long held but never sought an answer to:

Why are lessons so expensive?

I would think that ski resorts would have an interest in making them as cheap as possible. Competent skiers who can turn, stop, ride the lifts safely, and perhaps who "know how to fall" correctly would seemingly reduce skiing injuries in general, and thus reduce litigation and insurance costs.

It doesn't make sense to me. We all know the instructors are not well paid. The cost of the lesson wouldn't (seemingly) be their wages.

Because this is industry wide, it makes me think there must be hidden costs I can't think of. Perhaps part of it is just the cost of having a ski school? I.e. paying for the associated insurance, paying instructors for not only the hours spent teaching, but also their own training, not to mention all the downtime during slow periods, etc... But I still can't make it add up.

I lament the state of things because the high cost of lessons is the most often cited deterrent to skiing when I go about my business of trying to recruit friends of mine who are never-evers or hardly-evers to come on more ski trips. Even when never-ever lessons are reasonable, lessons for people who are at a level of "established beginner" or better are often much more.

Anyone have any insight?

Clarkl23 · Jan 3, 2011

jaywbigred said:
Here is a question I've long held but never sought an answer to:

Why are lessons so expensive?

Anyone have any insight?

As one of those poorly paid instructors my guess is that we're just a profit center for the mountain. For all of the reasons you mention you'd think that keeping lessons as cheap as possible would be in a mountain's best interest, but there are only so many of us and you really don't want to do a group lesson with much more than 5 people of similar ability.

Clark

KevinF · Jan 3, 2011

During my ski teaching career, I never heard of an instructor who got paid when they weren't actually teaching. This might change once you rise to the rank of "examiner" or something, but the run-of-the-mill instructor certainly isn't paid for "being there".

I was not allowed to teach students "how to fall" due to liability reasons. i.e., if I taught you "how to fall" and you fell and got hurt, then you had cause to sue. Or so I was told...

Is there any statistical evidence to back up the claim that advanced skiers get hurt less often then beginner skiers do? Obviously skiers of all ability levels can and do get hurt, so I'm not sure there's any insurance benefits to having a more-educated skier base.

I believe there's only one reason for ski lessons being expensive -- they're a profit center for the mountain, plain and simple.

jaywbigred · Jan 3, 2011

KevinF said:
Is there any statistical evidence to back up the claim that advanced skiers get hurt less often then beginner skiers do? Obviously skiers of all ability levels can and do get hurt, so I'm not sure there's any insurance benefits to having a more-educated skier base.

"Research suggests that younger, lighter and less experienced skiers are at highest risk of injury. Beginners are thought to be 33% more likely to be injured than the more experienced skier." http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/bysport/skiing-injuries.htm

"There is evidence to suggest that the rate of injury is lower for expert skiers and snowboarders than for beginners." But "Compared with beginners, experts had an increased risk of suffering from a severe injury." "Self-reported skill level and injury severity in skiers and snowboarders." J Sci Med Sport. 2010 Jan;13(1):39-41. Epub 2009 Jan 4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19124272

"Beginners are 3-5 times more likely to be injured than advanced skiers." http://books.google.com/books?id=oc...v=onepage&q=skiing injuries beginners&f=false

It looks like yes, beginners are injured more often. It looks like the rates are even more dramatic for snowboarding. But it also looks like advanced skiers get hurt more severely. I wonder which impacts insurance rates more...it might seem like severe injuries would, but I think there is a possibility that we, as unknowing observers, over-weight the "big news" litigations that result from traumatic injuries, ignoring the smaller, more regular cases which are probably fairly constant (broken bones, knee injuries, concussions). But who knows.

deadheadskier · Jan 3, 2011

One thing I'm surprised you don't see more of is independent instructors. It seems like a raw deal for instructors at areas given the minimal amount of the overall lesson $$$ that gets paid to the instructor. Factor on top of that that the instructors have to pay out of their own pocket for training and certifications.

If I was a capable instructor, I'd look to strike out on my own. Make some business cards and hand them out at local lodging properties, have a facebook page etc. You could undercut the ski areas, but still make more money.

Advantage to the students: cheaper lessons.

Disadvantage to the students: no line cutting.

SkiDork · Jan 3, 2011

deadheadskier said:
One thing I'm surprised you don't see more of is independent instructors. It seems like a raw deal for instructors at areas given the minimal amount of the overall lesson $$$ that gets paid to the instructor. Factor on top of that that the instructors have to pay out of their own pocket for training and certifications.

If I was a capable instructor, I'd look to strike out on my own. Make some business cards and hand them out at local lodging properties, have a facebook page etc. You could undercut the ski areas, but still make more money.

Advantage to the students: cheaper lessons.

Disadvantage to the students: no line cutting.

Would ski areas allow this? Or would you have to do it clandestinely?

WakeboardMom · Jan 3, 2011

SkiDork said:
Would ski areas allow this? Or would you have to do it clandestinely?

Wouldn't insurance/liability be an issue?

deadheadskier · Jan 3, 2011

SkiDork said:
Would ski areas allow this? Or would you have to do it clandestinely?

As long as both parties paid to use the lifts for the day, I don't see how a ski area could say anything about it. People give their friends pointers are all the time. In this case, you're just charging for the pointers.

severine · Jan 3, 2011

Sort of like giving personal training sessions at a gym you're not affiliated with? Interesting thought...

Geoff · Jan 3, 2011

deadheadskier said:
As long as both parties paid to use the lifts for the day, I don't see how a ski area could say anything about it. People give their friends pointers are all the time. In this case, you're just charging for the pointers.

Nope. The resort will yank your pass if you are caught giving illicit lessons for money on their hill.

deadheadskier · Jan 3, 2011

Geoff said:
Nope. The resort will yank your pass if you are caught giving illicit lessons for money on their hill.

Does it say they can do that on the lift ticket?

billski · Jan 3, 2011

KevinF said:
I was not allowed to teach students "how to fall" due to liability reasons. i.e., if I taught you "how to fall" and you fell and got hurt, then you had cause to sue. Or so I was told...
.

As a consumer, I find that bizarre. The first two things I learned, and what kept me in the game was learning how to stop and how to fall.

jaywbigred · Jan 3, 2011

billski said:
As a consumer, I find that bizarre. The first two things I learned, and what kept me in the game was learning how to stop and how to fall.

I too definitely "learned how to fall." I think I taught it too during my brief stint as an instructor at Greek Peak. I don't think in either case we were told to fall on purpose (liability). It was more of a "if you feel yourself going down, here is the best way to do it." Followed immediately by "how to get up." Woe to the instructor with the group of 60 year old never-ever ladies on that one..

mister moose · Jan 3, 2011

deadheadskier said:
As long as both parties paid to use the lifts for the day, I don't see how a ski area could say anything about it. People give their friends pointers are all the time. In this case, you're just charging for the pointers.

This falls under 2 cases:

Ski resort on private land:
The resort sets their own rules, and can ask you to leave for (any reason, really) a whole host of reasons, including lack of insurance, or conducting a commercial operation on their property without permission.

Ski resort on public land:
The resort has a lease to operate from the government. The lease almost always guarantees exclusive rights to commercial activity on the leased premises. Commercial activity on public land without a license, permit or lease is almost always illegal.

UVSHTSTRM · Jan 3, 2011

As to the running a private ski lesson, couldn't you just inform your client that if stopped make sure to deny you paid for any such lesson and as the off mountain/private instructor just deny you got paid. Granted after a whole winter of giving people lessons for free, I think the jig is up.

To the original poster, I agree with all you said, but the other big thing to cheaper lessons would be a hefty amount of potential future skiers. I would guess most people have no intrest in skiing from the beginning when they see the lessons.

St. Bear · Jan 3, 2011

mister moose said:
This falls under 2 cases:

Ski resort on private land:
The resort sets their own rules, and can ask you to leave for (any reason, really) a whole host of reasons, including lack of insurance, or conducting a commercial operation on their property without permission.
Ski resort on public land:
The resort has a lease to operate from the government. The lease almost always guarantees exclusive rights to commercial activity on the leased premises. Commercial activity on public land without a license, permit or lease is almost always illegal.

I think this is the key point. If there is money changing hands, the resort/area is going to want a piece of the action.

SkiDork · Jan 3, 2011

UVSHTSTRM said:
As to the running a private ski lesson, couldn't you just inform your client that if stopped make sure to deny you paid for any such lesson and as the off mountain/private instructor just deny you got paid. Granted after a whole winter of giving people lessons for free, I think the jig is up.

If I were a potential customer and was told those were the terms of the lesson, I would run as fast away from that instructor as I could.

severine · Jan 3, 2011

SkiDork said:
If I were a potential customer and was told those were the terms of the lesson, I would run as fast away from that instructor as I could.

Yeah, that would seem pretty fishy to me...

gmcunni · Jan 3, 2011

SkiDork said:
If I were a potential customer and was told those were the terms of the lesson, I would run as fast away from that instructor as I could.

severine said:
Yeah, that would seem pretty fishy to me...

yes, i think if that conversation took place just outside the ticket booth it would be troubling and a bit creepy.. but if "Mr X" from AlpineZone was known to be an instructor/coach, you were seeking some help with your technique in the form of 1:1 and he was willing to give it then that "secret agreement" might make a lot of sense.

i'm not condoning theft of service (or whatever law/rule might apply) just saying it probably does happen.

deadheadskier · Jan 3, 2011

mister moose said:
This falls under 2 cases:

Ski resort on private land:
The resort sets their own rules, and can ask you to leave for (any reason, really) a whole host of reasons, including lack of insurance, or conducting a commercial operation on their property without permission.

Ski resort on public land:
The resort has a lease to operate from the government. The lease almost always guarantees exclusive rights to commercial activity on the leased premises. Commercial activity on public land without a license, permit or lease is almost always illegal.

I can think of one example where this probably occurs quite often.

Substitute the word 'coach' for instructor. I'm sure there a numerous professionals that have private paid coaches that ski with them at various mountains without incident.

Why are lessons so expensive?

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