Opening times and elasticity of demand

jaywbigred · Jan 17, 2011

A thread on the Mt. Snow season pass holder forum got me to thinking.

Does anyone believe there is any elasticity of demand related to the time of a mountain's first chair? In other words, if we assume that opening the earliest is desirable, do mountains that open later see less revenue as a result?

Opening times on weekends (correct me if I'm wrong):
Mt. Snow - 8 am
Stratton - 8:30 am
Stowe - 8 am
Kmart - 8 am
Bush - 8 am
Okemo - 8 am
Bromley - 8:30 am
MRG - 8:30
Jay - 8:30
Loaf - 8 am
Sunday River - 8 am
Loon - 8 am
Cranmore - 8:30
Smuggs - 8:30

Note that a lot of these places open major lifts first and then secondary lifts a half hour or hour later.

My personal guess is that opening time has little effect on demand. I think people make their decisions about where to ski, and thus where to buy lift tickets, based on other factors (trail count, acreage, location, snow quality, terrain, lodging, lift ticket prices, ski school, etc).

The only thing it might effect is the situation where a local skier has a choice of mountains to buy a season pass from, and perhaps he skis exclusively mornings before work. Then the extra 30 minutes might be valuable. Otherwise, not so much.

Thoughts?

mondeo · Jan 17, 2011

I would think there is some among casual skiers, who would look at a 8-4 operating schedule as giving more bang for the buck than a 9-4, as they'll theoretically get more runs in. Not that they actually ski more than 6 hours, but they could.

Other factor here is crowding. By opening up at 8, you have the locals going for first tracks for 2-3 hours out of the way before the rage until 4AM crowd gets there at 11.

jaywbigred · Jan 17, 2011

mondeo said:
I would think there is some among casual skiers, who would look at a 8-4 operating schedule as giving more bang for the buck than a 9-4, as they'll theoretically get more runs in. Not that they actually ski more than 6 hours, but they could.

Other factor here is crowding. By opening up at 8, you have the locals going for first tracks for 2-3 hours out of the way before the rage until 4AM crowd gets there at 11.

I think the above list makes it clear that we are talking 8:30 vs 8. No one (that I saw) opens at 9 on weekends.

I don't think that 30 minutes makes much of difference on the locals vs. "rage" crowd. But I could be wrong.

deadheadskier · Jan 17, 2011

Stowe opens the Forerunner at 7:30 on weekends and holidays. It's not uncommon for them to start 15 minutes earlier than that, but 7:30 is the official time. There is usually a fair amount of people lined up and ready to roll for opening bell, many of whom would be pissed if the mountain stopped offering early turns.

WJenness · Jan 17, 2011

jaywbigred said:
I think the above list makes it clear that we are talking 8:30 vs 8. No one (that I saw) opens at 9 on weekends.

I don't think that 30 minutes makes much of difference on the locals vs. "rage" crowd. But I could be wrong.

Burke is 9-4 every day.

I actually like 9-4 better when day tripping from the house, because I don't have to leave as early to get there when the lifts are opening... I generally prefer the conditions earlier in the day.

The 8AM starts I get are usually reserved for SR when I'm staying at a friend's condo on the mountain... That way we can get a bunch of runs in before the crowd shows up.

-w

drewfidelic · Jan 17, 2011

Some skiers may see a later opening as a positive. If the mountain opens at 8:30 rather than 8 on the weekends, that might be an incentive for skiers who want to get out for our around first chair getting to sleep in an extra little bit. I'm not sure that we can see the earliest opening as necessarily desirable and so while some areas may see increased demand for offering a better value (more skiing time for the price) others may see an increase in demand to be able to be out first on the hill while still being able to sleep in until a slightly more reasonable hour.

deadheadskier · Jan 17, 2011

On a similar note, I think mountains that are open in April should change their schedule from 10 to 5.

dmc · Jan 17, 2011

Hunter stays open later in the spring on nice days..

usually a game time decision..

mondeo · Jan 17, 2011

jaywbigred said:
I think the above list makes it clear that we are talking 8:30 vs 8. No one (that I saw) opens at 9 on weekends.

I don't think that 30 minutes makes much of difference on the locals vs. "rage" crowd. But I could be wrong.

No one does open at 9, but if there was no elasticity they would. 8 vs 8:30 probably doesn't make too much difference, I agree, but I'd think if anyone tried to push it to 9 on weekends there would start to be issues. Plus with crowding being worst just before lunch on any given weekend, getting as many of the early turns people on hill early and leaving early helps cut down on peak lift lines, and probably spreads out the lunch break more as well.

mondeo · Jan 17, 2011

deadheadskier said:
On a similar note, I think mountains that are open in April should change their schedule from 10 to 5.

Killington changed the hours last year, I think it may have been 9 to 4:30 or something like that. Still need the 9 start for the racers to hit the icy hard freshly groomed rock cord before the sun really hits it and makes things fun.

billski · Jan 17, 2011

deadheadskier said:
Stowe opens the Forerunner at 7:30 on weekends and holidays. It's not uncommon for them to start 15 minutes earlier than that, but 7:30 is the official time. There is usually a fair amount of people lined up and ready to roll for opening bell, many of whom would be pissed if the mountain stopped offering early turns.

I don't know why Stowe does this (we always take advantage of it though), but there is benefit to spreading out demand throughout the day, since most people, including hard-chargers don't last from opening bell to closing bell. I believe they only do this on the weekend though, which would support my hypothesis if true.

deadheadskier · Jan 17, 2011

I've seen the lift spin at 7:30 on a powder day during the week. Great for the working locals. Bang out 5-6 powder runs before work.

jaywbigred · Jan 17, 2011

I thought Stowe opened early, but couldn't confirm on their website:

http://www.stowe.com/tickets/lift_tickets/

I guess the way they word it allows for an earlier open, just not a later one.

deadheadskier · Jan 17, 2011

http://stowe.com/mountain/conditions.php

snow report lists opening times for their lifts

riverc0il · Jan 17, 2011

For powder, early openings favor powder hounds, early risers, and those without family. Later openings favor late risers, casual skiers, and slow moving families. I like early openings, especially at remote mountains. Jay opens at 8:30am but almost without fail, even on a powder day, there would never be a lift line (excepting opening bell) until 10am the earliest. If they had opened at 8a instead of 8:30a, that would be two more powder runs for the opening bell crowd and it wouldn't get other folks to the mountain any sooner.

Considering how few people are in line for opening bell at 8:30a (or even 9:00a during the week even on a powder day!), I doubt opening time has much to do with destination decisions. I can see folks thinking that 9:00a is pretty late because the industry standard in New England seems to be 8:30am for most places (though 8:00a for the biggest names and most popular locations).

jaywbigred · Jan 17, 2011

riverc0il said:
For powder, early openings favor powder hounds, early risers, and those without family. Later openings favor late risers, casual skiers, and slow moving families. I like early openings, especially at remote mountains. Jay opens at 8:30am but almost without fail, even on a powder day, there would never be a lift line (excepting opening bell) until 10am the earliest. If they had opened at 8a instead of 8:30a, that would be two more powder runs for the opening bell crowd and it wouldn't get other folks to the mountain any sooner.

Considering how few people are in line for opening bell at 8:30a (or even 9:00a during the week even on a powder day!), I doubt opening time has much to do with destination decisions. I can see folks thinking that 9:00a is pretty late because the industry standard in New England seems to be 8:30am for most places (though 8:00a for the biggest names and most popular locations).

River, I agree. That was basically what I thought the consensus would be, but it is interesting to hear the variety of opinions.

gpetrics · Jan 17, 2011

I've never seen stowe open before 8 on a weekday. Even a pow day.

On weekends the listed time for the fourrunner is 730am, but I have shown up at 730 on the nose a few times and seen the lifts already loading. So I figure they probably do open at 715 on occasion. I have no idea how frequent that is.

All other lifts open at the usual times that they open on weekdays I believe.

I really like the 730 weekend opening time since it gives you a chance to have the hill to yourself before the crowds show up. Especially when I just want to ski some cord this is a really great resource. Everything else being equal, I'd definitely pick the mountain with the earliest opening time.

deadheadskier · Jan 17, 2011

maybe things have changed. It was the 00-01 winter that I was last living in Stowe. Definitely got going before 8 numerous times

gmcunni · Jan 17, 2011

i'm not a morning person. other than a special event i'd rather have a late closing rather than an early opening. i don't think i've every made a decision on where to ski based on what time they start running the lifts.

BackLoafRiver · Jan 17, 2011

Sugarloaf opens at 8:30. (west mountain and snubber open at 8 but they don't really count as the West Mountain lift is a 22 minute ride to the top)

On Sundays, people who buy the Gold Plus pass can get first tracks starting at 7:30. I have only seen them open the lifts 15 minutes early on a powder day a handful of times.

This weekend while at Wildcat they opened the lift early Saturday but not Sunday. (which was a powder day)

Seeing how big the crowds can get on the weekends at both Sugarloaf and Saddleback, I don't see any reason why they couldn't push opening up to at least 8. I am certain that if they started a policy of opening at 8 on a pow day, they would have more than enough interest.

Opening times and elasticity of demand

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